Taser used on 72 yr. old Granny...

[jimlongley]

You know, I'm going to play the opposite side here and say that if you are dumb, and out of control enough, to dare an officer to tase you, you deserve to get tased.

... but I guess you can't fix stupid.

She worked real hard to convince the officer that she needed to be tased.

IMO her age and size should not be that much of a determining factor, she wasn't frail, she was speeding, and she didn't seem to be very rational. What if, instead of just trying to get in her truck and leave, she was merely trying to get to her gun so she could respond to the officer in what she considered to be a proper manner.

[frazzled]

You have a point there, Russell, she was definitely way out of order from the very beginning of the stop.

Maybe the lesson here is, you don't double-dog-dare an angry officer with a drawn taser... to pull the trigger.

-geo

[>whiplash<]

She'd a complained if she was hung with a new rope. I'll bet she would have chosen getting tased if she knew the alternative was the old wooden shampoo.

She was resisting arrest in the video I saw. Law enforcement can't win. If the deputy constable beat the tar out of her some people would be saying he should have used the Taser instead. Maybe Mr. Montgomery is right. "When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them."

[casingpoint]

This lady was not really very threatening to society, much less that cop. He used the tazer not to gain control of her because he was out of non-violent options to do so, but to either comply with her demand to be tased, or to shut her up. Neither is justification for what occurred.

A big ole cop tases an harmless old grandma. Nah. It ain't gonna fly except around police stations where they're looking for instant backup.

[Cajundude]

You know, I'm going to play the opposite side here and say that if you are dumb, and out of control enough, to dare an officer to tase you, you deserve to get tased.

... but I guess you can't fix stupid.

Furthermore, if the officer laid hands on a "female" there would be other problems to worry about. The officer was justified. Seeing the video, it may have happened a little quick, but I would like to see the entire video.

Just because you are old should not excuse you from being an, well, pain.

[Oldgringo]

Cajundude wrote:

Just because you are old should not excuse you from being an, well, pain.

I take it that you've never been old...yet?

[Cajundude]

Cajundude wrote:

Just because you are old should not excuse you from being an, well, pain.

I take it that you've never been old...yet?

Not really, only 38. However, the officer would be in trouble for touching the female, or letting her run into traffic so he is in a Catch 22.

[Keith B]

Cajundude wrote:

Just because you are old should not excuse you from being an, well, pain.

I take it that you've never been old...yet?

Not really, only 38. However, the officer would be in trouble for touching the female, or letting her run into traffic so he is in a Catch 22.

I disagree. Officers can, and do, touch females if needed. Just because the arrestee is female doesn't mean they can't be subdued if the person or officers safety comes into play. Pushing a person or wrestling them to the ground is required sometimes, male or female. In this case, the dash cam shows the officer played it by the book and there was no inappropriate physical contact.

When I was a LEO we had a couple of females (and they were NOT ladies) in the area that could probably have taken me in a fair fight. The 'Mag-Light massage' worked on one of them one night, but it was administered by a lady officer. However, I wouldn't have hesitated to shampoo her myself if there was a need to do so.

[jimlongley]

Cajundude wrote:

Just because you are old should not excuse you from being an, well, pain.

I take it that you've never been old...yet?

Not really, only 38. However, the officer would be in trouble for touching the female, or letting her run into traffic so he is in a Catch 22.

I disagree. Officers can, and do, touch females if needed. Just because the arrestee is female doesn't mean they can't be subdued if the person or officers safety comes into play. Pushing a person or wrestling them to the ground is required sometimes, male or female. In this case, the dash cam shows the officer played it by the book and there was no inappropriate physical contact.

When I was a LEO we had a couple of females (and they were NOT ladies) in the area that could probably have taken me in a fair fight. The Mag-Light Shampoo worked on one of them one night, but it was administered by a lady officer. However, I wouldn't have hesitated to shampoo her myself if there was a need to do so.

I nightsticked a Wave once, on shore patrol in the Navy. Seems she objected to one characterization or another, either of her or the place she was hanging out, and she was doing an admirable job of setting a precedent for a "Roadhouse" movie brawl when we arrived. She gave my partner a shove when he approached her about calming down and coming outside to discuss matters, and then she turned on me. I gave her a shot in the solar plexus with the butt end of my stick, which was NOT one of those with the neat metal knob on the end but it was longer than average, and then a swing to the back of the knee took her to the floor, where we fitted her with a nice new set of silver bracelets.

We had been taught, in Shore Patrol training, not to use a nightstick to the head unless and until it was a last resort, life or death, situation.

I can assure you that we had no ulterior motives in the way we handled her and that we would have handled any other sailor of either gender in the same manner under the same circumstances, but that didn't stop her from complaining to the duty Chief. The complaint went no farther than that, and she spent the night in the Newport brig drunk tank.

[frazzled]

Travis county DA (Austin) is investigating. This LEO is doomed

My truly personal opinion but unless I was closer to retirement than starting (aka golden handcuffs) there's no way, no way, I'd be a cop in Austin. I am sure they have the usual percentage of bad apples, but Austin's relationship with its police is shifting from Berkeley style police relations (bad) to Oakland style relations (horrible). Others may disagree but thats my $.02.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/n ... sered.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

District attorney's office plans to investigate Taser case
Deputy constable's use of force on 72-year-old woman could go to grand jury.
By Claire Osborn

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF


Friday, June 12, 2009

The Travis County district attorney's office will review an incident in which a deputy constable used a Taser on a 72-year-old woman during a May traffic stop.

"I have talked with Constable McCain, and he is completing his investigation and will present it to our office," Travis County District Attorney Rosemary Lehmberg said, referring to Precinct 3 Constable Richard McCain. "We will review it, as we do other matters involving use of force, for possible presentation to the grand jury."

Lehmberg said she expects McCain's report in the next few days.

The video of the Tasering incident has been on Yahoo News, YouTube, Twitter, CBSNews.com, the Huffington Post and newspaper Web sites from San Francisco to Buffalo, N.Y. The comment board for the story on Statesman.com had more than 800 posts by Thursday evening.

Deputy Constable Christopher Bieze pulled over Kathryn Winkfein 's 2004 Toyota pickup on Texas 71 in western Travis County on May 11 for allegedly going 60 mph in a 45-mph construction zone. Winkfein, of Granite Shoals, a 4-foot-11 great-grandmother, told Bieze in the video that she wouldn't sign the citation. That led to a confrontation in which Bieze threatened to use his Taser stun gun on Winkfein unless she complied with his orders. She dared him to use it, and he eventually did.

Winkfein was later jailed and charged with resisting arrest. She has since been released.

Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton released a statement Wednesday after the phone lines at his office were flooded by callers who mistakenly thought the sheriff's office had jurisdiction over the actions of constables. Constables are independently elected and don't report to the sheriff's office, he said.

Hamilton also said he didn't agree with Bieze's actions as shown on the video.

Sgt. Maj. Gary Griffin of the constable's office said Thursday that Bieze did the right thing in dealing with a person who refused to be arrested and who put them both in harm's way.

Griffin said he is confident Lehmberg's office will come to the same conclusion that the constable's office has regarding the incident.

"She was affecting a lawful arrest and was physically noncompliant," Griffin said of Winkfein. "I don't see an offense."

McCain could not be reached by phone Thursday for a reaction to Hamilton's comments. In an e-mailed statement, McCain said that "Winkfein has had similar run-ins with police officers in Burnet County, where she has refused to take the ticket and just drove off." That information could not be confirmed Thursday.

Winkfein's son said she had no comment Thursday. Her lawyer did not return a phone call.

The constable's office has the same use-of-force policy as the Travis sheriff's office, Precinct 3 Deputy Constable Stacy Suits said.

There are no restrictions on the age of a person on whom the Taser can be used, according to policy documents.

Taser International recommends not using the weapon on people who are physically infirm or elderly.

cosborn@statesman.com; 445-3871

[Locke]

This one was a judgement call by the officer. He had to take her to jail. I probably would have physically restrained her and put the cuffs on her. But that wouldn't have looked good on video either.

Either way what he did didn't look criminal to me so I'm sure the officer will be fine.

[frazzled]

Anywhere else in Texas. However thats Travis County. It won't be pretty

Check out the reader comments. Its enlightening.

[Oldgringo]

After the music stops and the smoke clears, we're going to find that tasering an unarmed 72 year old person of feminine gender, regardless of her perhaps bizarre antics, is not recommemded procedure.

Anybody wanna' bet?

[kd5zex]

I have been stewing on this for a few days so I will chip in my two cents.

First, the deputy clearly lost his temper which is a strike against him. Losing your cool gets you nowhere fast regardless of your profession and is inexcusable in adults.

While the woman was being ornery and I am not condoning her behavior, I don't consider her actions violent nor did she "deserve" to be Tased. In my opinion the deputy escalated the situation by losing his composure.

I was not aware that swearing and being argumentative was subject to a fine of on the spot electroshock therapy. I thought a Taser was an alternative to deadly force, not a pain compliance device. What are we, livestock? Looks like the Anti LTL crowd was dead on when they predicted the outcome of issuing these devices to law enforcement.

I see a certain "sheepdog" quote in the signatures on this board. Something to the effect of taking the higher road and setting the example. This deputy was not operating within these parameters.

She was resisting arrest in the video I saw. Law enforcement can't win. If the deputy constable beat the tar out of her some people would be saying he should have used the Taser instead.

This is disturbing, why should the woman be abused at all?

Bottom line, if this wasn't a highly questionable action by the deputy we would not be hearing about it. Personally, I hope the deputy is reprimanded and placed on administrative duty.

[kd5zex]

And yes he may have towered over her, however tactics the police are taught do not allow the use of "gentleness" in the case of the elderly or infirmed.

Yes, one should default to good judgment and common sense in this case.

If he had to take her down it would have been much worse for her. His only options were a: tase her b: spray her c: use his baton or d: use a pressure point or physical force designed to put a healthy male on the ground. You decide. I do this stuff for a living and IMHO the officer used the most effective, least destructive force necessary to subdue the individual.

With all due respect, using violence to stop a hissy fit? Here is another option, reasoned discussion and the utilization of your best weapon, your brain. As I stated in another post, the deputy carries an equal amount of blame for losing his composure.