Question about Clayton Library in Houston

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One Shot
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#16

Post by One Shot »

If you get a response that "no guns" means CHLs also, let me know and I'll tell you how to send an Open Records Request they won't like.
I got exactly that type of explanation at a police substation in San Antonio displaying a non-compliant sign.
I asked at the desk (a non-secured portion of the station-411.207) if that applied to CHLs and was told absolutely. When I pointed out the sign was non-compliant, the officer said he knew, but was told by his superiors it applied to CHLs. I didn't point out the public building issue.
I thought this odd, since the last time I was in the main station downtown they had a system in place for disarming prior to entry into the secure portion of the station.
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myron243
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#17

Post by myron243 »

I just asked my neighbor who is a friend of our councilman, Mike Sullivan to ask Sullivan on what grounds, legal or otherwise Houston is attempting to prevent CHL holders from entering city property. And as I understand the school activity, it has to be going on at the time. It states "is being conducted." Not "may be conducted." Not "planned for later today." Seems pretty specific to me. Is being conducted.
9/12/09 - Day 174 - Finally in hand
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cling
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#18

Post by cling »

Are you sure they're metal detectors and not loss prevention devices for the rare books?
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#19

Post by pedalman »

cling has a good point. They could be RFID readers, like those in some stores.

Got a friend with an outlandishly huge belt buckle? Have that person walk through the door.
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CleverNickname
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#20

Post by CleverNickname »

cling wrote:Are you sure they're metal detectors and not loss prevention devices for the rare books?
I'm almost certain that's what they are. Unless they're having everyone take out their keys and spare change, take off their belt buckles, etc for separate inspection (otherwise they'd set off a metal detector), the "metal detector" is an RFID reader or something similar.

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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#21

Post by ronbo83 »

That is what they have at the Central Library in downtown Houston, just RFID scanners, not metal detectors. Unfortunately they have posted 30.06 on the front doors so I have to risk my life when I venture from my loft to get a book after work. It actually prevents me from going to the library even though it is only 6 or 7 blocks from my house, but at least they have a book drop outside so I can drop off the books for the wife.

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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#22

Post by dicion »

ronbo83 wrote:That is what they have at the Central Library in downtown Houston, just RFID scanners, not metal detectors. Unfortunately they have posted 30.06 on the front doors so I have to risk my life when I venture from my loft to get a book after work. It actually prevents me from going to the library even though it is only 6 or 7 blocks from my house, but at least they have a book drop outside so I can drop off the books for the wife.
As stated earlier, 30.06 signs, even properly worded and sized ones, hold no water by law on government property. It is stated directly in 30.06 itself :mrgreen:
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#23

Post by boomerang »

Unless they fixed them recently, the signs at the main entrance of the central branch are not correct.
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#24

Post by bdickens »

ronbo83 wrote:That is what they have at the Central Library in downtown Houston, just RFID scanners, not metal detectors. Unfortunately they have posted 30.06 on the front doors so I have to risk my life when I venture from my loft to get a book after work. It actually prevents me from going to the library even though it is only 6 or 7 blocks from my house, but at least they have a book drop outside so I can drop off the books for the wife.

Last time I went to that haven for what my wife affactionately calls "types," I walked right on past that sign laughing.
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Skiprr
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#25

Post by Skiprr »

Well, the Clayton is part of the Houston Public Library System, in fact the central library and the Clayton are considered the two locations that comprise the "Central Library Complex." There are 36 other branch libraries. If the central library itself is incorrectly marked regarding legal carry, and the library's personnel are incorrectly informed and attempting to enforce policy that is invalidated by law, I say--considering our major bills were just foiled in the Legislature--that correcting this wrong looks like a good deed that would make me feel better. ;-)

Here are the Web-posted library policies: http://www.hpl.lib.tx.us/rules-and-policies. The following are the only excerpts that would seem to apply (ellipses indicate sections of omitted text):
The Houston Public Library System wrote: ...The following behaviors and activities are prohibited on library property (inside or outside library buildings):

...Unlawfully carrying a weapon.

...The following behaviors and activities are prohibited in library buildings:

...Bringing in any items that could potentially be used as weapons, including but not limited to sporting equipment such as baseball bats, skateboards, etc.

...Anyone known to have violated any of the above rules may be asked to leave from the library as a matter of administrative policy or arrested, as permitted by law. Severe offenses may result in exclusion from the library.

If confronted with the violation of any of the above rules, please immediately inform library staff/security.

Violation of criminal trespass laws or of these rules and regulations may result in prosecution. These rules and regulations have been promulgated under the authority of Section 24-5 and Article IX, Chapter 21 of the Code of Ordinances, City of Houston, Texas. See also Texas Penal Code ?[sic; the Webmaster doesn't know the "§" extended HTML character for the section symbol]30.05 (relating to criminal trespass) and ?[sic]31.03 (regarding theft).

These rules were approved by City Council on April 27, 2005
The referenced City of Houston Code of Ordinances are (http://www.houstontx.gov/codes/index.html):
Code of Ordinances, Chapter 24, Article I, Section 24-5 wrote: Rules and regulations.

(a) The director shall have authority, subject to the approval of the mayor and city council, to prescribe rules and regulations for the administration of the department and for the orderly government and use of the library system, provided, that such regulations shall not conflict with valid laws or ordinances. A copy of such rules and regulations shall be maintained for public inspection in each library within the system, in the office of the director and in the office of the city secretary.

(b) The director and all other employees of the department are hereby individually and severally authorized and directed for and on behalf of the city to notify any person who fails or refuses to comply with any applicable provision of law or of departmental rules and regulations to depart from any city property or building under the control of the department. Any such person who upon such notice fails to depart from any such property or building shall be subject to prosecution under Section 30.05 of the Texas Penal Code for criminal trespass in addition to prosecution for any other crime that he may have committed thereupon.

(Code 1968, § 25-5; Ord. No. 81-1459, § 1, 8-4-81)
Code of Ordinances, Article IX, Section 21 wrote: Exclusions from limits on City revenues.

(a) Revenues of enterprise funds are not included in revenues limited by this Charter. The preceding provisions do not affect Charter limitations on the growth of property taxes or water and sewer rates contained in Article III, Section 1, and Article IX, Section 20, of this Charter.

Enterprise funds (e.g., the Airport System) are all those largely self-sufficient activities not funded with property tax revenues. To maintain the self-sufficiency of the Water and Sewer System, the revenues of that System can only be used for the purposes of that System, and limited drainage purposes, as set forth in the existing debt covenants of that System. Those revenues cannot be used for any other purpose.

(b) For the purposes of calculating any revenue limitation in this Charter, amounts resulting from termination of or reduced participation in a tax increment reinvestment zone shall be treated in the same manner as revenues from annexed areas in Article III, Section 1.

(c) City Council may prescribe methods for complying with limits on revenues in this Charter to account for changes in accounting standards or practices. (Added by amendment November 7, 2006)
The latter is meaningless for our discussion, but that's what is referenced on the library's Website.

So a complete copy of the "rules and regulations shall be maintained for public inspection in each library within the system." TexasAggie2006, if you get to the Clayton frequently, I say you simply ask to see the Houston Public Library System's rules and regulations (per City of Houston Code of Ordinances, Chapter 24, Article I, Section 24-5...if you get a "sorry, can't do that" response.

The Open Records Request may not be necessary unless they refuse to let you view the entire set of rules and regulations. I used to take a digital camera with to the Clayton when I went frequently in the early '90s; I don't know if that is still allowed. If so, I'd consider taking photos of the sections of the rules and regulations that seem pertinent. You could share those here (or contact me and I can upload them to a private server for general viewing here), then we can mutually (maybe with Charles's advice) decide on the best course of action. I'm game to do some legwork, research, or letter writing...I just don't often get to any of the libraries.
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myron243
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#26

Post by myron243 »

...Unlawfully carrying a weapon.
Well, that seems to take care of the problem. If you have your CHL then you are lawfully carrying a weapon, yes?

And this seems to recognize they must obey valid laws.
(a) The director shall have authority, subject to the approval of the mayor and city council, to prescribe rules and regulations for the administration of the department and for the orderly government and use of the library system, provided, that such regulations shall not conflict with valid laws or ordinances. A copy of such rules and regulations shall be maintained for public inspection in each library within the system, in the office of the director and in the office of the city secretary.
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#27

Post by Skiprr »

I agree, myron243, but I believe if the library system, under director Rhea Brown Lawson, is disseminating incorrect information and instructions to library personnel and security guards at a whopping 38 municipal locations, that we could spend a little time to help them...er, improve their employee training program. ;-) And maybe save some poor CHLer from getting caught in the miscommunication and suffering public embarrassment, or a call to the police.
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myron243
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#28

Post by myron243 »

Yeah, Skiprr, I agree that the misinformation given out by the security guard to the OP needs to be corrected. I'm just curious as to how pervasive that problem really is. Maybe my city councilman will be able to get to the bottom of it.
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#29

Post by psehorne »

The Houston Public Library System wrote: ...
Violation of criminal trespass laws or of these rules and regulations may result in prosecution. These rules and regulations have been promulgated under the authority of Section 24-5 and Article IX, Chapter 21 of the Code of Ordinances, City of Houston, Texas. See also Texas Penal Code 30.05 (relating to criminal trespass) and ?[sic]31.03 (regarding theft).
They should read 30.05 (f)(1) and (f)(2)
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the
building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license
issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.
By they way, whatever came of this issue. The thread just seemed to end with no outcome.
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Re: Question about Clayton Library in Houston

#30

Post by psijac »

Why would you want to go to a library? Everything is online now

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