ABC 20/20 "Guns in America"

[CHL/LEO]

The "Active Shooter" situations were a joke. I now have watched each one several times (thanks DVR) and it was totally unrealistic. Each time the "shooter" came in and shot the instructor first thing, and then quickly turned and engaged the one person in the room carrying a concealed handgun. They knew who had the handgun and came in and targeted that one person. In one situation they even had another shooter "staged" among the other students and that person also quickly engaged the student with the gun. Talk about media bias - this was just terrible.

We are fortunate that we have very good training at our department that utilizes Simunitions and realistic training scenarios. We call it Reality Based Training and every officer in the department goes through it on a regular basis. We have multiple situations that we put the officers through and sure lots of them get shot but that's the point. We also have a lot of instructors who play the active shooters getting shot too. The instructors always have the upper hand because when they go into a room they know who the officers are and that they're armed. In real life it's the same way so that's why we do this. Take cover if possible, engage your target and then move. Shoot and move, shoot and move.

Put me in charge of that Active Shooter scenario that was on TV tonight and I would stage it differently. I would have one or two armed students in the classroom and I would not let the instructor know who they were. Then let him come in and engage the teacher and start shooting some students. Sure he would shoot several students but would he get the one(s) carrying concealed. Run the scenario four or five times like they did and I think that you would see a whole different result. Another thing that they should have pointed out on the show is "where were the police when this was going on"? No way that they could have responded in time to do anything about it. If you are to be responsible for your own protection then you better plan on doing it yourself.

Now the one thing that the LEO firearms instructors stated that was right on, is that when you are in a situation like this your fine motor skills go right out the window. Your ability to draw a weapon, site, and reload are a lot harder. If you ever have the opportunity to go through this type of training you will find that out. Even though it's not real it is still very realistic. When they put monitors on participants they find that their heart rates go right through the roof just like in real life and their fine motor skills diminish. They also get tunnel vision like they talked about tonight. It's even better if you have film to watch of your participation. You will see yourself doing and reacting to things that you have no recollection of. It's great training. I wish someone would open up a real nice range where non LEOs could participate in this type of training. Heck, there are probably lots of LEOs that would like to experience it because only a few departments and agencies even have the ability to put something like this on.

Again, a very biased show that could have been produced by the Brady bunch.

[Skiprr]

That active shooter scenario they ran, each time the badguy(s) was/were trained police firearm instructors! Talk about unfair.

I noticed that. I also noticed that, in the active shooter scenario, the attacker entered the room, shot the "teacher", and then immediately opened fire on the student with a concealed pistol. Why would a gunman come right out and target one person after shooting the teacher?

They did spend a lot of time on the active shooter scenario, didn't they? And of course nothing that made it "unrealistic" got any air time.

• None of the students "tested" had a CHL.
• ABC kept citing the "experience" of the AirSoft gamer and the guy who'd spent 100 hours "at the range."
• There was no evidence any of these people had ever attempted to draw from holster before that day.
• There was no evidence any of these people had ever attempted to draw from concealment before that day.
• There was no evidence any of these people had ever attempted, or even knew, to "get off the X," a precept 101 in defensive handgunning.
• There was no evidence any of these people had ever previously taken any handgun course from a professional instructor, even an NRA basic pistol course.
• The LEO instructor who briefed the students was the same man who played the active shooter. He not only knew which student to turn on after he'd "shot" the teacher, he'd just provided 'em with what instruction they had.
• The LEO instructor moved from first target to the next in practiced fashion; no school shooter in history has had that kind of efficiency.
• We have no idea what information was actually conveyed in that instruction, or how much practice was allowed.
• A huge deal was made of the "attacker's" hits versus the novice students' hits. Partially valid, but I don't believe the local PD small-arms instructor has ever attacked a school.
• "Co-conspirator students" were placed in the in classroom with concealed handguns as accomplice, "sleeper" shooters. Show me one time this scenario has played out in a school shooting.
• The student shooters were given retention holsters that had a thumb strap.
• The student shooters were made to wear gloves of probably dubious fit (the "attacker" did as well--most likely his own shooting gloves--but he didn't have to draw from concealment; he just burst into the classroom with the gun at ready).
• The student shooters were made to wear full-coverage helmets.
• All of the other "students" in the classroom were plants, and were playing out a role. You cannot simulate "active shooter" chaos with roll-playing.

All I can think of at the moment. And I'm still steamin'.

Of course ABC couldn't have the objectivity to say, "Hey, maybe we should seek out at least one student who really is trained. And let him use his own carry gear. And don't let the 'attacker' know who he is in advance." But no. Why would they, because they might end up with a Jeanne Assam result that they'd just have to cut it out of the final production, anyway, because it didn't fit their agenda.

ABC needs to let John Stossel do a follow-up piece to this leftist tragedy.

[Doug.38PR]

Dad and I caught the last 20 minutes of it.
Granting all this mumbo jumbo about the "activge shooter" scenario is true.....so what? Would they prefer nobody is armed and everyone get killed rather than taking a chance that 1 or 2 victims MIGHT get shot or that the armed defender MIGHT get killed anyway?
All this business about tunnel vision in a tense situation, that was all bogus...why?...because this scenario was not a tense situation...it was a game and everybody in the back of their mind, if nothing else, knew this.
Another thing about the active shooter thing....in a game everybody is going to try to shoot the bad guy and the bad guy is going to shoot back just like cowboys and indians as children...in a real life shooting...there is going to be more ducking and a cowardly shooter is more likely to get out of the room when he see one or two of his victims is armed.

Dad and I were laughing all through the Omar gun show story. As said in another thread....it's all a bunch of sob stories and scare mongering. "Some of them even brought babies in a stroller" "most people acted like it was just a family outing".....how stupid can anything get. These things were stuff everyone in this forum does at gun shows...it's perfectly normal.
as for Omar, he has a lot of nerve coming over here, or his family coming over here, and telling us how our laws ought to be and that the heritage of liberty that our forefathers since the 1700s bequeathed us is wrong. If I went to or was born in Japan or Iran by Texas parents and launched campaings against their ways...their people would rightfully think me an arrogant American who is presumtuous and rude to say the least.
Where his background is from, third world dungheaps that have absolute gun control laws which let tribal warlords and militants be armed and leave an unarmed populus subject to the sword or gun of Saddams and Osamas et al. Regardless...he needs to go back to sandyland if he doesn't like from sea to shining sea. he certainly has no business telling us what we should be doing. All these sob stories and emotional music showing his sister and family pictures made me want to puke. I have 0 simpathy for people who use the death of somebody else to advance a dishonest political agenda and ABC ought to be ashamed for airing such a thing.
ABC's reporters are so condecending and arrogant with their pompus manner in contrast to John Stossels honest and plain manner. I hope he does a counter story to this.

[Skiprr]

CHL/LEO: GMTA.

I DVRed it also, but couldn't bring myself to watch any of it a second time. Maybe for those who are trying to lose weight, like me, I could bring a DVD to TexasCHLforum Day and play it just before lunch. That'd quell the appetite.

As for non-LEO courses, Gabe Suarez is big on force-on-force training, as is Shivworks. Hoffner in Houston conducts FOF classes a few times per year. I think it's an experience every CHL should have at least once.

[Doug.38PR]

^
Not every CHLer out there or even gun owner out there has ever had combat training. I haven't to be honest. I'd like to at some point (hoffners I'm told is good, I used to go to Top Gun all the time to practice all most every Sunday after church until I got my own land) but I practice all the time in shooting, drawing from the holster, moving while shooting, moving while drawing, ducking, squatting, point shooting, speedloading, loading from a dump pouch or cartridge loops. Most CHLers, like my dad, don't even do this.

I think it is unfortunate that so many gun owners don't get to the range as often as they should. Dad at best gets to shoot once a year (although he is a marine that was in the service from 64-67). BUT, none of this validates ABC's arguments. This doesn't mean that things will go wrong just because teh gun owner hasn't been trained like a cop. It doesn't mean that an innocent person will get shot, it doesn't mean that they will miss shooting the bad guy, it doesn't mean they will die trying.

[atxgun]

All of the other "students" in the classroom were plants, and were playing out a role. You cannot simulate "active shooter" chaos with roll-playing.

What would you suggest to make a more realistic active shooter scenario?

[oilman]

Another point re the active shooter scenario: the active shooter was at no risk. He was being fired at with paint pellets. I do not think he would have stood there calmly firing if it had been a live fire situation with real rounds incoming.

I actually got on the comment board for this show last night on the abc website. At that time (about 10:30 PM) there were over 600 comments on the show(in addition to my comments) the vast majority of which pointed out the biased, inaccurate, fear mongering, shameless"reporting" that occurred on this show.

And don't even get me started about guns in the toy box! Good grief....

BTW ABC gave that young man $5000 to purchase guns at the gun show. Was that an illegal straw purchase?

[jimlongley]

I did not watch the show, and that runs against my usual "know thine enemy" philosophy, but I just didn't feel like getting my gut roiled up over something which I won't get fied this time.

What little I did see, of the "active shooter" scenario, looked to me like he did not react when hit, and I would like ABC to answer "Where's the fair in that?"

[KD5NRH]

Might as well put this in here, too: stolen from THR in case anybody wants to complain to the advertisers who funded it:
[quote=maestro pistolero]"If I only had a gun" ABC program advertiser list.
Let these companies know you vote with your dollars. Also let ABC know you are contacting their advertisers.

Here are the advertisers for the DC area at least, but the national companies are probably the same for other areas.

First break:
Dannon (DanActive)
Kohl's
Dove
Fidelity
Cialis Lilly Pharm.(might be hard for some of you to boycott this one) :-P
Universal Studios (The Soloist)
Verizon Wireless
ABC Network Commercial for Extreme Makeover Home Edition.

2nd Commercial Break:
Abilify Anti-Depressant (great commercial for an anti-gun show huh?)
PetSmart
Apple iPhone
NicoDerm CQ
New Line Cinema (ghosts of girlfriends past)
Re/Max
Bali Bras and Panties
ABC Good Morning America
ABC Castle

Third Break:
Sprint
Reclast (Osteoporosis Medicine)
H&R Block
ABC The Unusuals
Local News Commercial
Ameritel (Local Business) 301-251-0222
Smart Balance
Melwood http://www.melwood.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Fourth Break (oh why don't they do something about all the assault weapons and M16 look alikes?):
Verizon Wireless (again)
Travelers Insurance
Transitions Lenses
ABC Good Morning America
ABC Dancing with the Stars
Nature's Promise (Giant Grocery Stores) http://www.giantfood.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
NTB National Tire and Battery (and Merchant's)
Colonial Williamsburg, VA http://www.visitwilliamsburg.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Probably the last break:
Local News
Missed one
Kohls
Dove
Universal Studios (State of Play)

Directly after the show:
Papa Johns[/quote]

[sparky]

What a joke, "active shooter" should have used some one that has been in a tactical situation, the out come against trained police firearm instructors would have been much different.
In my opinion trained police firearm instructors are not the persons we should put much faith in, how many times have we heard that 1 to 2 officers have shot 20 to 30 rounds and missed the suspect completely or hit bystanders or each other.
I do not want to upset any LEO out there, you do a fine job every day but most of you have never been in a combat situation.
NOBODY KNOWS HOW THEY WILL REACT TO A GIVEN SITUATION! ASK YOUR SELF WHAT WOULD YOU DO!
We must remember that as a CHL holder it is our training that has hopefully taught us that to be prepared for situations like this BUT we must Practice what we have learned often to become proficient at it. Remember practice makes perfect

I practice drawing daily, firing monthly,and think constantly!

[Rex B]

Well, thank you ABC for wasting an hour of my time.
What a disjointed, illogical sequence.
I'm not sure what they were trying to convey, but they sure did a poor job of it.
And you'd think at some point they would have felt compelled to offer the counterpoint arguments, just for the sake of balan.....
Oh, that was ABC. Never mind.

[zaroffhunts]

Guns are the most effective countermeasure against an active shooter. I have to wonder at the ulterior motives behind someone who says otherwise. It's a shame ABC talking heads have become somewhat less credible than Baghdad Bob.

[kd5zex]

Well guys, I am convinced. Since a few college kids failed to neutralize an active shooter, a little boy in a ghetto fears for his life and some stupid teenagers killed their friends with guns I have decided to pack it in. I am headed to the police station to turn all of my high powered, high capacity, assault handguns, rifles and shotguns (including a M16 look-a-like) over to properly trained and more competent hands. As a regular citizen I do not have the wits needed to protect myself in a situation and would just hurt myself and others, its better for everyone that I just crawl under a desk and play dead, run away or hide in a closet and hope that someone else will feed, house and clothe my family if I don't make it. I am also revising my cell phone contract to allow for unlimited minutes so I will not incur any overages while I am hiding and calling the police. A cell phone is the only weapon I need.



The message and motive of this drivel is clear. All guns are bad, normal folk do not have the capacity to act properly in a self defense situation and there is no legitimate reason for a "civilian" to carry or even own a firearm as they are just to dangerous. As evidenced in the moving scene, many (most?) people have zero experience with firearms and apparently have zero common sense. ABC exploits this to promote their agenda but really shows nothing except for the stupidity of those individuals. We live in a culture of shifting blame. Nothing is your fault, it is your mothers, your fathers or in this case an inanimate object.

[Keith B]

Here is my comment posted to the ABC website and sent to the ABC email in-box. I am sure it hits the trash can immediately, but it makes me feel better. At least I am in very good company on the comments. The major portion of them are lambasting the show.

Congratulations ABC 20/20, you have just presented yellow journalism at its best. In your ‘If I Only Had a Gun’ episode there were so many of the situations that were edited in a way to heavily slant toward an anti-gun agenda. It is clear your intentions are to promote guns as evil. Watching the show left me very disappointed in your claim of fair and honest reporting. While there were some truths broadcast, I can’t even begin to list all of the inaccuracies in the episode. It was clear your intent was to broadcast them as accurate, when it is known by the producers and staff they aren’t factual, but will hold the viewer’s attention from the shock factor. Let's take one example, your ‘Shooting Under Fire’ scenario.

Pitting rank amateurs, who have little to no firearms experience, against a highly trained tactical police instructor is asinine. The attacker KNEW who the armed person was and where they were sitting. The poor defender didn’t even have a chance. It’s like putting Diane Sawyer against Michael Jordan in a dunking contest; you have rigged the contest to guarantee the outcome will be as expected. It was clearly evident this situation was set-up to purposely fail.

I challenge you to try a real experiment with an attacker who has average marksmanship skills, similar to the shooters involved in the recent mass shootings. Pit them against a person who has a concealed carry license and has regularly practiced his/her skills, such as drawing from a concealed holster and shooting at moving targets. THEN you will have a more realistic scenario and a fairly level playing field that a person who is armed would likely face.

Let’s see some true reporting on issues, and not something that reeks of personal agendas and tries to unfairly sway viewers on a subject.

[Oldgringo]

Good Job, Keith!