CHLer shootout with burger king robber

[seamusTX]

Welcome to the forum, beccasgrandpa.

I want to point out this record as reported by the Miami Herald:

...selling cocaine and marijuana, aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, resisting an officer with violence and carjacking. In all, he had been arrested more than a dozen times. His run-ins with the law began when he was 15. ... burglary ... battery ... aggravated battery and assault with a weapon and assault on a law enforcement officer.... burglary, kidnapping and strong arm robbery.

I don't know why this man turned out this way. I don't care to speculate. But according to these reports, he had no respect for the law or human life.

Contrast that with a man who has worked within the system, obeyed the law, and worries about lawsuits and prosecution.

Which will be quicker to pull the trigger?

- Jim

[PsychDiver]

IF you are carrying, you have already made the decision to be a sheep dog and not a sheep so next you have to decide how far you are willing to go when the activity may not be directed AT you. You also have to make up your mind what is important enough that you are willing to take a human life.

I was challenged by a good friend of mine, who is a police officer, to ask yourself this question. "if you can make a point of no return type commitment like this? IF I pull my gun, I'm going to Kill someone. He made that commitment so he wouldn't be tempted to pull his gun to "threat" or intimidate someone, etc. He says he will ONLY pull it to SHOOT someone. I'm not ready to make that commitment yet but it is a challenging question to ask yourself.

Yes! I took the class for my CHL and then said, "What the heck did I just do?" I thought I was just going to do this simple class that would let me carry if I wanted to. It was actually life changing. I had to think hard about the responsibility I just took on. I have answered the question and I will take my weapon out when I am ready to stop the threat. If the BG dies, so be it. But I know that no matter what happens after I pull the trigger, (If I am still living) there will be legal, perhaps medical and for sure psychological ramifications. Even if I win, I lose!

[03Lightningrocks]

I was challenged by a good friend of mine, who is a police officer, to ask yourself this question. "if you can make a point of no return type commitment like this? IF I pull my gun, I'm going to Kill someone. He made that commitment so he wouldn't be tempted to pull his gun to "threat" or intimidate someone, etc. He says he will ONLY pull it to SHOOT someone. I'm not ready to make that commitment yet but it is a challenging question to ask yourself.

Good Lord, I hope he didn't really mean that, him being a cop and all. I think cops on occasion pull their guns without the need to fire them.

[boomerang]

There's some huge percentage (90% or more?) cops who never fire their guns on the street. Just on the range. I would be surprised if there are many career cops who haven't drawn their gun for a felony stop or some similar situations.

[03Lightningrocks]

There's some huge percentage (90% or more?) cops who never fire their guns on the street. Just on the range. I would be surprised if there are many career cops who haven't drawn their gun for a felony stop or some similar situations.

I have had cops hold guns on me more than once. Twice for mistaken identity, Once, when I walked into a tactical response to an explosives complaint. It was at night and I saw the shadow of someone lurking in the alley behind the house. I creeped up on him Indian style with a hammer in my hand. I just about crapped my pants when he turn around on me with a firearm just before I got to him and said police, get on the ground. Turned out a couple neighborhood kids were playing with dry ice and making it pop real loud. One of the neighbors called in and said they heard explosions. I was young then, I no longer play ninja when I see something outside. I sit in the house and call the cops. And once during a traffic stop when I unwittingly scared the cop. I am very glad they did not shoot me.

[ClarkLZeuss]

I also strongly believe that since getting my CHL a couple years ago, it didn't make me more eager to use my gun, it made me LESS eager to use a gun. It gave me a greater feeling of responsibility and conscience than maybe I would have before.

I took the class for my CHL and then said, "What the heck did I just do?" I thought I was just going to do this simple class that would let me carry if I wanted to. It was actually life changing. I had to think hard about the responsibility I just took on.

+1

[frazzled]

There's some huge percentage (90% or more?) cops who never fire their guns on the street. Just on the range. I would be surprised if there are many career cops who haven't drawn their gun for a felony stop or some similar situations.

I have had cops hold guns on me more than once. Twice for mistaken identity, Once, when I walked into a tactical response to an explosives complaint. It was at night and I saw the shadow of someone lurking in the alley behind the house. I creeped up on him Indian style with a hammer in my hand. I just about crapped my pants when he turn around on me with a firearm just before I got to him and said police, get on the ground. Turned out a couple neighborhood kids were playing with dry ice and making it pop real loud. One of the neighbors called in and said they heard explosions. I was young then, I no longer play ninja when I see something outside. I sit in the house and call the cops. And once during a traffic stop when I unwittingly scared the cop. I am very glad they did not shoot me.

Yergh-lucky! You almost proved the Texas mantra of never bring knife (hammer) to a gunfight!

I think what the LEO might have meant, and I think we all agree is, if you pull a firearm, you better be prepared to use that firearm. Warning shot is just the one that missed.

[Kythas]

There's some huge percentage (90% or more?) cops who never fire their guns on the street. Just on the range. I would be surprised if there are many career cops who haven't drawn their gun for a felony stop or some similar situations.

I have had cops hold guns on me more than once. Twice for mistaken identity, Once, when I walked into a tactical response to an explosives complaint. It was at night and I saw the shadow of someone lurking in the alley behind the house. I creeped up on him Indian style with a hammer in my hand. I just about crapped my pants when he turn around on me with a firearm just before I got to him and said police, get on the ground. Turned out a couple neighborhood kids were playing with dry ice and making it pop real loud. One of the neighbors called in and said they heard explosions. I was young then, I no longer play ninja when I see something outside. I sit in the house and call the cops. And once during a traffic stop when I unwittingly scared the cop. I am very glad they did not shoot me.

Yergh-lucky! You almost proved the Texas mantra of never bring knife (hammer) to a gunfight!

I think what the LEO might have meant, and I think we all agree is, if you pull a firearm, you better be prepared to use that firearm. Warning shot is just the one that missed.

When I was a rookie, my FTO gave me a bit of advice my first day on the street that has stuck with me to this day, even though I no longer wear a badge. I know it's more pertinant as a cop, but it's still good advice:

"If you're ever in a situation where you're not sure whether you should draw your gun or not, draw it. The last thing you want is to find the bad guy with his gun drawn and pointed at you and your gun still in the holster. If you're ever in a situation where your gun is drawn but you're not sure whether or not you should shoot, don't shoot. There should be no question in your mind when you pull the trigger that that's the only option available to you at that moment."

[seamusTX]

When I was a rookie, my FTO gave me a bit of advice...:
"If you're ever in a situation where you're not sure whether you should draw your gun or not, draw it...."

If a LEO draws his sidearm and doesn't have to use it, he just reholsters and that's the end of the matter. A non-LEO could face a charge of intentional failure to conceal or even deadly conduct if the justification is questionable.

In this case, with an armed robber in flagrante delicto, I think there would be no question. If it's a case of two guys walking behind you at night and whispering, not so much.

- Jim

[Doug.38PR]

How many of you would have engaged this robber in a gun fight ? I did not get my CHL to stop a place from being robbed, since we were not there, we do not know if the good guy's life was threatened and that would be a different story but my decision has already been made, I am not going to get into a shootout with someone over a robbery unless I feel necessary.

If he is threatening one person with a gun, he is threatening everyone. Don't let something like that happen and hope it works out. That is a violent criminal willing to use deadly force. He is a danger not only to the employees but to other people. Leaving you and the other customers out of it for the moment, he's threatening the life of a hard working innocent person behind the counter. Threatening to murder them if they don't comply...or may even kill them if they do out of panic or because they just don't like their shoes or are just plain crazy.

Sorry the customer got shot, but better to be judged by 12 than carried by six...or I guess the better saying in this case would be better to be carried by 2 to the ambulence than carried by 6 to the herse.

[03Lightningrocks]

If I did choose to stop the BG, I know for a fact I would not warn him first. I would just open up on the guy.

[.45mac.40]

3 - ?
7 - ?
15 - ?

I feel, if a BG has a gun ... and is in range ... he's ready to use it !
If I'm within that range ... Shoot, move and communicate ... Hopefully, I have the element of surprise ( CHL ) !
Remember ... DEATH, IS FOREVER !!

Mac .45 >>>.45 >>>>>>