What is the legal definition of "college campus"?

[DrinkRaiderade]

I ask this because I am somewhat confused. On the surface it seems like a very easy question, with examples like Texas Tech, University of Texas, Texas A&M, SMU, TCU etc. The area where I think it is fuzzy is with institutions like The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, The University of North Texas Health Sciences Center in Fort Worth. These institutions serve the role of state-run/funded hospitals, but are under the banner of a University System. There are medical schools (and other allied health/graduate programs) at these institutions, but are these places covered by the law forbidding carry on a college campus? Or are they Hospitals that must post 30.06 signs to forbid concealed carry? Since they are government run hospitals are they even allowed to post 30.06 signs?

The Dallas County Hospital, "Parkland" sits on the UT-Southwestern campus and shares some facilities/staff/etc. with UTSW. I know that the main Parkland building is owned by Dallas County and is operated/policed by the Dallas County Hospital District, but is completely surrounded by property of the University of Texas System. Is carry permitted at Parkland? (If you have ever been around/inside of Parkland, you can understand why I want to be able to carry there).

The same situation exists at the Texas Tech Health Sciences Center in Lubbock, which shares its campus/facilities with University Medical Center, the Lubbock County Hospital. I just think the law may be a little gray as to if concealed carry is or is not permitted in these places. Do any of you have any insight to these types of situations?

[seamusTX]

Ask the county DA. He's the one who would prosecute if you were arrested.

I'll bet you US$100 that he says you can't carry in a facility that is operated by a university system (loser of said bet donates to the NRA-ILA).

Before you Internet lawyers wear your fingers out, the opinions of the DA and judges are the only opinions that matter.

- Jim

[DrinkRaiderade]

Jim,

Knowing who Dallas County's DA is, there is NO WAY that I would take your bet. I am just wondering if I were arrested if I would even have a legal "foot" to stand on. The area around UTSW/Parkland/Children's Hospital is not the safest in the city of Dallas, and none of these properties have 30.06 signs; I am required to go to this area quite a bit for my job and would like to protect myself, just wondering if anything could be done to "unmuddy" the waters of this area of the law?

[seamusTX]

I figured that Dallas County elected officials would not be the most respectful of the RKBA.

The term school as used in PC §46.03(1) has never been defined by statute or case law. If someone had the misfortune to be charged, it would be up to a finder of fact to determine whether a university facility is a school. Most if not all of them are teaching hospitals, so I would not like to be in that situation.

If SB1164 and HB1893 become law, this problem will go away.

Meanwhile, parking lots are not considered school premises, and public streets that go through campuses obviously are not. This is helpful if you drive, but not if you ride a bicycle or use public transportation.

- Jim

[DrinkRaiderade]

seamus,

I see that you live in Galveston. If you had to go to UTMB for medical care for yourself or family, or for your job, would you carry?

[seamusTX]

I do go to UTMB for medical care (no alternative), and I do not carry there. I have spoken to UTMB police officers, who are University of Texas police officers. Their opinion is that their facilities are off-limits to CHL holders. I haven't asked the DA; I don't think I need to.

There is no question that UTMB is a teaching hospital. The dorms, classrooms, and areas of the hospitals and clinics where students, professors, and patients are present are inseparable.

On top of that, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice hospital is in Galveston, and TDCJ prisoners are sometimes brought into the unsecured areas of the hospital (for MRIs, surgery, etc.). When they do, the TDCJ guards disarm and stuff a rag into their holster -- even though the prisoners are severely ill and shackled to wheelchairs.

Concealed means concealed, of course; but when you are going for a medical exam, you may be asked to disrobe, palpated, or X-rayed, or have some kind of reaction that makes you disoriented or unconscious. It is difficult to maintain cover under those circumstances.

I do not enjoy trusting my safety to others; but UTMB has an excellent record of keeping the criminals and nuts at bay, probably because it does have a large, dedicated police force.

- Jim

[srothstein]

I think now might be the best time to get an opinion on the hospital being part of the school. If the campus bill does carry, schools cannot forbid CHL, so having it pre-defined as a school instead of a hospital may come in handy int he very near future.

[seamusTX]

There is no question that certain premises of UTMB are hospitals (several of them). They are licensed by the state as such and accredited by other governing bodies such as JHCO, Medicare, and Medicaid.

That is not a problem, as hospitals are no longer statutorily off-limits for CHL holders.

There are also areas of UTMB that are not hospitals. Many of the outpatient clinics are in separate buildings that have no hospital beds, and the patients that go there are not admitted to the hospital.

All these issues are hopelessly convoluted. The whole thing is owned by the UT system (except Shriners hospital). Parts of it are school facilities; parts are hospitals; parts are prison facilities; at least half the staff are students or faculty. For the most part, you can't even tell where a particular building begins and ends. They are built side-by-side or connected by tunnels and pedestrian bridges.

I don't know that they have a 51% bar, but there is probably a faculty club somewhere that I don't know about.

- Jim

[battalion74]

I haven't heard of a statute that says we can enter hospitals now, can you tell me which is it? I was told that gov't funded hospitals we're able to enter, but not the private hospitals.

[Liberty]

I haven't heard of a statute that says we can enter hospitals now, can you tell me which is it? I was told that gov't funded hospitals we're able to enter, but not the private hospitals.

We can enter Private hospitals unless they are 30.06 posted.
30.06 signs have no Validity on City, county or state property.
We are not allowed to carry at schools, UTMB in Galveston claim they are a College university. If we accept that they are indeed a College University Then we must assume that it is illegal for us to carry on their premises.
The name of the Hospital is widely known as UTMB which is University of Texas Medical Branch.
My plan is to say healthy till at least Sept. 1st

[seamusTX]

I haven't heard of a statute that says we can enter hospitals now, can you tell me which is it?

Penal Code §46.035(i), added in 2007.

You need a map, a compass, and a flashlight to figure out how it works, though. I would not depend upon a LEO knowing, and I am certain that hospital personnel would not.

- Jim

[T3hK1w1]

Meanwhile, parking lots are not considered school premises, and public streets that go through campuses obviously are not. This is helpful if you drive, but not if you ride a bicycle or use public transportation.

- Jim

Can anyone show me where in the statues it states this?

[boomerang]

Can anyone show me where in the statues it states this?

The definition of premises is right there in Chapter 46.

"Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

[bubba1876]

UTMB in Galveston claim they are a College university.

Until 'campus carry' is passed, then they will claim to be a hospital and look stupid.

[hirundo82]

I think now might be the best time to get an opinion on the hospital being part of the school. If the campus bill does carry, schools cannot forbid CHL, so having it pre-defined as a school instead of a hospital may come in handy int he very near future.

I would think that hospitals actually owned by universities, such as MD Anderson and UTMB, are pretty clearly schools. Those two are defined as part of the UT system by the Education Code:

Sec. 65.02. ORGANIZATION. (a) The University of Texas System is composed of the following institutions and entities:

(8) The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, including:
(E) The University of Texas Hospitals at Galveston; and

(11) The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, including:
(A) The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Hospital;

The less clear area is hospitals not owned by a university but is affiliated with them. These would include Parkland, which is the county (public) hospital for Dallas County but is also a teaching facility for UT-Southwestern, and Memorial Hermann in the Texas Medical Center, which is a private hospital which is a teaching facility for UT-Houston.