CHLer shootout with burger king robber

[03Lightningrocks]

Why are we second guessing that this guy shot the robber? None of us were there. Maybe if more citizens would shoot these cretins when they act up it would send them a message.

Wow...the internet is a funny thing. It did not look to me like anybody was second guessing the guy. I just see folks posting that they are not sure what they would do in the same situation.

[DoubleJ]

"Whaddya mean 'you're out of Whoppers'??????"

just another reason you don't mess with the King....



"Yes, I'll have 5 shots, center of mass, to go, please."

[Keith B]

"Yes, I'll have 5 shots, center of mass, to go, please."

Would you like fries with that?? Maybe you can use them to plug the holes.

[TxFig]

How many of you would have engaged this robber in a gun fight ? I did not get my CHL to stop a place from being robbed,

I've never been put into that situation, but I HOPE I would have the fortitude to do what this good Samaritan did.

Why?

Because sheepdogs do not carry only to protect their own life. Sheepdogs, by definition, are there to protect everyone. By not stopping a bad guy in the act of a violent crime, you are allowing this person to put someone else in danger again in the future.

It's the same reason I carry a current CPR card - or should I only perform CPR on people in my own family?

[casingpoint]

How many of you would have engaged this robber in a gun fight ?

I dunno about us, but the people of Florida must have learned something following this incident:



http://www.wflxfox29.com/Global/story.asp?S=9424987" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



I believe it is a reasonable assumption, based on years of accumulated incidents, that an innocent bystander is going to be killed or seriously harmed by the perpetrators of any restaurant or stop-and-rob heist. Recently the FBI no less voiced the same conclusion. Most juries would hopefully side with you, but that is not a given by any means.

Once a felony is in progress, the perps are fair game, so long as you are in fear of death or great bodily harm, and I don't mean that in any other sense other than it is your chance at your election to come out of the situation alive.

[03Lightningrocks]

How many of you would have engaged this robber in a gun fight ?

I dunno about us, but the people of Florida must have learned something following this incident:



http://www.wflxfox29.com/Global/story.asp?S=9424987" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



I believe it is a reasonable assumption, based on years of accumulated incidents, that an innocent bystander is going to be killed or seriously harmed by the perpetrators of any restaurant or stop-and-rob heist. Recently the FBI no less voiced the same conclusion. Most juries would hopefully side with you, but that is not a given by any means.

Once a felony is in progress, the perps are fair game, so long as you are in fear of death or great bodily harm, and I don't mean that in any other sense other than it is your chance at your election to come out of the situation alive.

Holy cow!!!! OK...you got me with that post. That would sure explain the thinking behind shooting them before they have the chance to shoot you.

[Purplehood]

How many of you would have engaged this robber in a gun fight ? I did not get my CHL to stop a place from being robbed,

I've never been put into that situation, but I HOPE I would have the fortitude to do what this good Samaritan did.

Why?

Because sheepdogs do not carry only to protect their own life. Sheepdogs, by definition, are there to protect everyone. By not stopping a bad guy in the act of a violent crime, you are allowing this person to put someone else in danger again in the future.

It's the same reason I carry a current CPR card - or should I only perform CPR on people in my own family?

You never know when/where the gunman intends to stop. If you did, you wouldn't be there in the first place.

[bdickens]

If some guy pulls a gun and tries to rob the place while you are waiting for your Whopper, he is threatening to use deadly force. He poses a threat to everyone in the place. Ergo, he is a threat to you.

[Sangiovese]

"Yes, I'll have 5 shots, center of mass, to go, please."

Would you like fries with that?? Maybe you can use them to plug the holes.

You can only use the fries to plug the holes if it's a 9mm. My .45 makes hot dog sized holes :)

On a serious note... hope the good guy recovers fully, both physically and mentally.

[dukesean]

I guess Shaq is looking to an alternative career once he's done playing basketball

[casingpoint]

f some guy pulls a gun and tries to rob the place while you are waiting for your Whopper, he is threatening to use deadly force. He poses a threat to everyone in the place. Ergo, he is a threat to you.

The FBI called the death of a perp for cause during a felony robbery or burglary justifiable homicide.

[ninjamedic2293]

This is yet one more situation that shows that "one shot, one kill" with pistol and/or intermediate rifle calibers is often a myth. As a paramedic in a busy urban EMS system I cant tell you how many patient with multiple GSW's I have seen where the patient is still fighting/combative/moving etc. I remember one patient while I was working in the DFW area that was hit 11 times between two officers in an OIS and he still fought us in the ambulance. He did die at Parkland but the fact remains that he was still an at least marginally effective combatant for a significant period of time after being shot. The only truly effective incapacitating hit is one which results in either 1-A round impacting and/or penetrating the skull and causing a sufficient insult to the brain to induce unconsciousness, 2-A round striking the spinal column sufficiently high enough to either stun or severe the spinal cord and disrupt the continued transmission of nerve impulses, and 3-A projectile striking the heart and/or vasculature creating a sufficient hemorrhage to decrease the cerebral perfusion pressure to such a level that the subject cannot stay conscious. Anything short of that and you are relying on the subjects response to the pain of the projectiles impact to cause that subject to voluntarily change their course of action. As we all know every persons' pain threshold is very different, and the bodies' reaction to the stressors of a gun fight can absolutely allow individuals to either ignore or continue to operate through that pain response even though they have sustained an injury which will eventually prove fatal. As a good example of this scenario I am posting a link to an FBI report dispelling a number of myths that circulated in the LEO community concerning an officer involved shooting (OIS) where a suspect was shot 17 times over the course of a three minute and thirty second long shootout by two officers who discharged 107 rounds of .40 S&W 180gr Speer Gold Dot/.223 75gr TAP. 11 of the hits were "through and through", exiting the far side of the subject's body. During this period the subject was able to discharge his weapon (a 1911 pattern pistol chambered in .45 Auto, unknown magazine capacity but typically seven rounds) 26 times while reloading from a box of loose ammunition. I can show many more examples of this type of incident. You should expect that if you are in a situation where you are forced to engage a subject armed with a firearm, you will have rounds headed in your direction and will be hit. Hopefully you will survive with no long term injuries. Just like a knife fight, everyone gets cut. From the ppt - "Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a longtime, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol."


***********!!!WARNING!!!************

THE FOLLOWING LINK CONTAINS EXPLICIT POST-MORTEM PHOTOS OF THE ASSAILANT DESCRIBED ABOVE. IT IS NOT SAFE FOR YOUNG CHILDREN NOR MAY YOU WISH TO VIEW IT YOURSELF. IT IS MERELY PROVIDED TO EDUCATE THE FORUM MEMBERS ON SOME OF THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF ENGAGING A SUSPECT. VIEW AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/F ... cademy.pdf

[casingpoint]

Thanks, ninjamedic, but I will look at the link tomorrow, after a good night's sleep.

In the meantime, I would like your qualified opinion on one of my favorite subjects: In you best estimation, what percentage of the time do hollow point bullets fail to expand when fired into a human, and of those expanded, what percentage is perfectly expanded or nearly so and what percentage is significantly deformed?

[Keith B]

***********!!!WARNING!!!************

THE FOLLOWING LINK CONTAINS EXPLICIT POST-MORTEM PHOTOS OF THE ASSAILANT DESCRIBED ABOVE. IT IS NOT SAFE FOR YOUNG CHILDREN NOR MAY YOU WISH TO VIEW IT YOURSELF. IT IS MERELY PROVIDED TO EDUCATE THE FORUM MEMBERS ON SOME OF THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF ENGAGING A SUSPECT. VIEW AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/F ... cademy.pdf

I have seen this report and thanks for posting the warning. It is graphic to say the least. However, it IS very informative on the myths of 'stopping power' on bullets. it all falls back to bleed-out or CNS shock.

[dewayneward]

This link and information is certainly making me rethink my carry/actions in the sense that if I pull it will be an emptying of the clip (not a shoot 2-3 times and see how it goes)....and this make me rethink my 7+1 clip size. It seems like I need to get a doublestack mag to shoot greater than 14 rounds. I always carry a 2nd clip, but in the heat of the moment, I certainly dont want to deal with changing clips.