Is Open-Carry Dead for 2009?

[Captain Matt]

So, you're saying that people who support open carry should refuse to call or write on behalf of two other bills they presumably support, unless the people who support those two bills but don't support open carry agree to call and write on behalf of open carry anyway?

No. You're saying that.

I'm saying that people should call or write on behalf of the bills they support. But not lift a finger if they're neutral on a bill, unless there's 2-way cooperation. The parking lot bill does nothing for me. The campus carry bill does nothing for me. Open carry would be useful sometimes. But if other gun owners are not willing to help me, why should I lift a finger to help them?

In fact, the Brady-style emotions against keeping and bearing arms openly has convinced me to make a few calls in support of the property rights of employers.

[LarryH]

But if other gun owners are not willing to help me, why should I lift a finger to help them?

How about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."?

Don't let the "other gun owners" drag you down to their level.

[gmckinl]

has convinced me to make a few calls in support of the property rights of employers.

Thanks a lot sport.

[Conagher]

Well, from a “legislative bill being introduced this session” standpoint I would have to agree the vital signs are not good. However, I hope the issue of open-carry remains alive so that it can continue to be discussed in order to educate and alleviate anxiety and fears that others may have; and hopefully to reconcile any differences on the issue.

Though like SA-TX I believe OC will be much less of an issue than Charles or others have opinioned (just like CC was); I do appreciate Charles’ concerns after he explained his rationale. I must also agree with the feelings of frustration and disappointment. However, these feeling are more a result of our inability to find a way to work together to restore 2A freedom to Texans, than the fact an actual bill will not be introduced this session. And my personal opinion is there is work needed on both sides to close this gap.

Though a native Texan I was a resident of Arizona for a short period of time and may have been spoiled by the freedoms enjoyed there. For those of you who like to make a rural vs. urban distinct my open carry experience was in Tucson (pop. >485K) and Phoenix (pop >1.5M). Regardless of whether I choose to OC or CC, and I would mostly likely do both depending on the situation just like in AZ, it is a personal irritant to me that over 75% of the US population (almost a quarter billion people) currently enjoy this freedom, whether they decide to exercise it or not; yet I am deemed less worthy of this freedom simply because I am a Texan. I can drive less than 2 hrs east, remove my jacket exposing my firearm and be perfectly legal. This same act in my home state will label me a criminal. This to me is ridicules and unacceptable, irrespective of any personal opinion of OC. Analogically, I have no current need for an AR-15, to carry on a college campus, or to have body tattoos. But I do not feel my personal opinion or current situation should result in restrictions of other’s freedom to own, carry or display.

I too would like to offer suggestions going forward in what should be a common alliance to restore and maintain our 2A freedoms:

• First for the Grass roots organizations, we must understand the criticality of alliances; especially in the political arena. We can debate the ideology and fairness of the existing bureaucratic structure, but the cold truth is until a cultural change is implemented it is the structure we must maneuver within if we intend to accomplish our political goals. And as Charles infers, alienation in any form provides no advantage and will most likely harm our cause. However, on a positive perspective the energy, excitement and visibility that has been brought to bear on this issue in a relatively short period of time has been nothing short of incredible. Understand and be prideful of what we have been able to accomplish. Within a very short period of time we have brought this issue to the forefront of 2A issues in Texas to the extent a State Representative had a bill drafted with the intention of submitting it. That’s quite a feat! But in order to “cross the goal line”, which is what ultimately counts in the end; my personal belief is we need to maintain the excitement, but modify the tactics.

• Secondly, and directly to the point for TSRA, we need to find a way to adapt flexibility into the process in order to maximize opportunities. My personal belief is if TSRA would have been flexible enough to jump on board this past summer during the momentum build up for OC, we would have a bill submitted today. And that is not a very far stretch considering Representative Riddle already has it drafted. This time it was Open Carry; next time it may be reduction of 30-06 signs, or elimination of CC application fees, or any number of 2A freedom restoration items. If we never have the flexible to take advantage of these opportunistic situations, then we are less than we could be and leave too much on the table. There should be no debate on the accomplishments of TSRA regarding 2A freedoms within Texas; these accomplishments too are pretty incredible when you consider where we started. But even with the hard gained knowledge and lessons learned, it would be audacious to believe there is no room or necessity for continuous improvement in our process.

It is my hope, desire and ambition that we can set aside our paltry differences on mode, method and place of carry; and align to restore full 2A freedoms to all Texans!

God Bless and Have a Nice Day!

Conagher

[Charles L. Cotton]

In fact, the Brady-style emotions against keeping and bearing arms openly has convinced me to make a few calls in support of the property rights of employers.

Brady-style my foot. If someone doesn't agree with you on open-carry, then they are acting in a Brady-like manner? Then by your standard, you are acting like Sarah Brady by making calls against a bill that employees need. Remember, no one has done anything to prevent open-carry from passing because there is no bill!!!!! But if you are serious, you are trying to harm the employer parking lot bill because of a philosophical dispute? And you expect people to support open-carry?

The attitude you promote is why I doubt open-carry will every garner significant support in Texas.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

. . . My personal belief is if TSRA would have been flexible enough to jump on board this past summer during the momentum build up for OC, we would have a bill submitted today.

Conagher

As I have posted several times now, I sincerely appreciate the efforts you and SA-TX have made to approach this issue in a statesmanlike manner. In fact, I'm somewhat reluctant to post this because I don't want it to sound like a criticism of you and it certainly isn't.

However, contrary to what some people have said both here on TexasCHLforum and on OpenCarry.org, no one has ever asked TSRA to take on open-carry as a legislative project. (I don't think our members have strong feelings about it, based little or no input from them on this issue.) A relative handful of people did call and ask us to endorse OpenCarry.org's project. Those are two markedly different things. When we take on a project, we do all of the work I've outlined in other posts. Then and only then do we put our name on it. If OpenCarry.org asks us to blindly endorse their goal of passing open-carry (this is what they wanted), then they are also asking us to endorse their methods and that will never happen; not next session or any other session. We make progress, not enemies. We meet with people and convince them, we don't get in their faces and make threats.

I know some people attack TSRA and NRA by claiming that we won't do anything if we aren't getting the credit. That's not true. We do it all the time and people never hear of it because the task has to be handled discretely. What we will not do is align ourselves with people or organizations that may (or may not) be well-meaning but inexperienced and thus hinder achieving whatever goal we have set. While some may call this arrogant it's merely a matter of doing our own work because we can do it better than anyone else. Yet we occasionally, albeit rarely, work with other organizations toward a common goal. For example, we worked with ACLU Texas (not the national organization) to help lay the ground work for last session's HB1815, Motorist Protection Act. But ACLU Texas did nothing on the political front; that's our arena. This session, we are working with Students for Concealed Carry on Campus because they have a goal, did a very good job of getting students, faculty and parents interested in protecting their children, did not alienate elected officials or gun owners, and because they didn't try to run the political show. They let us do what we do best! They came to us as dedicated people with a large and growing following, a cause that was right up there with God, Mom & apply pie, people willing to work to achieve their goals, but they asked us how to get it done in Texas. Then we worked through the two year process that TSRA uses to promote our agenda and SCCC did everything we asked them to do. Unlike OpenCarry.org, they didn't have someone from Virginia come up with a terrible bill, then come to Texas with no preparation or plan and ask TSRA to endorse anything and everything they would ultimately do.

You will "dance with who brung 'ya" so pick your date carefully.

Chas.

[GrillKing]

In fact, the Brady-style emotions against keeping and bearing arms openly has convinced me to make a few calls in support of the property rights of employers.

Brady style?? In my opinion, the OC movement was so poorly conceived and executed it had no chance out of the gate. Although I am all for restoration of our full 2nd amendment rights, practically speaking, it must be done in incremental steps. To bully a proposed piece of legislation through, almost attacking our gun friendly legislators is, politely, naive at best and detrimental to the overall cause at worse. I hope these friends of the 2nd amendment in Austin aren't soured by the onslaught that was/is suppose to be thrown against them.

Effective restoration means small steps with those items that have a chance to succeed coming first. Parking lot and school carry are prime examples of that. In my opinion, OC had no chance this session. That's not to say that the waters shouldn't have been tested and if done properly, perhaps even pursued. But to negate the possibility of restoring other aspects of 2nd amendment rights because the masses didn't support OC this year due to the likelyhood it couldn't get the needed support (this session) in the form it was presented is self defeating for the movement overall.

I for one hope that OC efforts slide into oblivion this year before they negatively impact beyond repair those good pieces of legislation that have a real chance.

I hope this post hasn't violated forum rules, I don't intend it as an attack on anyone, but rather my take on the overall philosophy of how not to implement OC in today's environment.

[Oldgringo]

In fact, the Brady-style emotions against keeping and bearing arms openly has convinced me to make a few calls in support of the property rights of employers.

Brady-style my foot. If someone doesn't agree with you on open-carry, then they are acting in a Brady-like manner? Then by your standard, you are acting like Sarah Brady by making calls against a bill that employees need. Remember, no one has done anything to prevent open-carry from passing because there is no bill!!!!! But if you are serious, you are trying to harm the employer parking lot bill because of a philosophical dispute? And you expect people to support open-carry?

The attitude you promote is why I doubt open-carry will every garner significant support in Texas.

Chas.

Not that you need my concurrence but you get it anyway. Some of these Open Carry folk have a "my way or the highway" mindset and that's counterproductive and sad to say the least.

I've also noticed that, with some OC proponents, the 1st Amendment is sacrosanct until a question on the application of the 2nd Amendment is raised. Then cries of heresy, etc. are lofted to the high heavens.

Oh well, all's well that ends well.

[Captain Matt]

Brady style??

"Open carrying guns is okay in other states but Texas is different."

"If we let Texans open carry guns there will be blood in the streets when fights escalate."

"I don't need to open carry a gun so nobody needs to open carry a gun."

"If you open carry a gun the criminal will take it away and shoot you with it."

"Open carry is okay for the police and military but not the common people."

"Open carry is okay for security guards but not the common people."

"If we let Texans open carry guns it will be like the WILD WEST!"

[TheArmedFarmer]

no one has ever asked TSRA to take on open-carry as a legislative project.

Well, on July 6th, 2008 at 1:19pm I emailed Jim Dark at the TSRA, and I made no mention of OpenCarry.org (I didn't even know about them at the time). Jim never replied to me.

Mr. Dark,

I am not a member of the TSRA but am considering joining, in an
effort to throw my support behind an organization that defends
our second amendment right in Texas.

My issue is, though, that our state government currently requires
a license to carry concealed, and provides no provision for
carrying unlicensed.

The Supreme Court clearly said that individuals have the right to
keep and -bear- arms for self-defense, but Texas requires an
expensive permit, an arduous application process, and an
interminably long wait before you can bare arms.

Why do we need a permit (permission?) to exercise a right that
the Supreme Court recently upheld? Do we also need a permit to
operate a printing press?

Does the TSRA have a position on the matter? The answer to this
will determine whether I join, and whether I will encourage
others to do the same.

Thanks,
Dave

I'll have to say that I still haven't joined TSRA. It's a pity, too, as if Jim had responded that at the very least, the TSRA cares about the issue, I would have joined as a life member immediately. His ignoring my email discouraged me about the organization.

[Conagher]

... no one has ever asked TSRA to take on open-carry as a legislative project.

Fair enough. So in front of God, Country and this Forum I would like to formally request TSRA take on open carry as a legislative project for the next session. Somewhat tongue-in-cheek but serious enough that I would kindly appreciate instruction on any formal process or procedure necessary to make such a request; and I will promptly follow through with a submittal .

Best Regards & God Bless,

Conagher

[Charles L. Cotton]

no one has ever asked TSRA to take on open-carry as a legislative project.

Well, on July 6th, 2008 at 1:19pm I emailed Jim Dark at the TSRA, and I made no mention of OpenCarry.org (I didn't even know about them at the time). Jim never replied to me.

Mr. Dark,

I am not a member of the TSRA but am considering joining, in an
effort to throw my support behind an organization that defends
our second amendment right in Texas.

My issue is, though, that our state government currently requires
a license to carry concealed, and provides no provision for
carrying unlicensed.

The Supreme Court clearly said that individuals have the right to
keep and -bear- arms for self-defense, but Texas requires an
expensive permit, an arduous application process, and an
interminably long wait before you can bare arms.

Why do we need a permit (permission?) to exercise a right that
the Supreme Court recently upheld? Do we also need a permit to
operate a printing press?

Does the TSRA have a position on the matter? The answer to this
will determine whether I join, and whether I will encourage
others to do the same.

Thanks,
Dave

I'll have to say that I still haven't joined TSRA. It's a pity, too, as if Jim had responded that at the very least, the TSRA cares about the issue, I would have joined as a life member immediately. His ignoring my email discouraged me about the organization.

I mean no offense by this comment, but if you're not a TSRA member, then your opinion doesn't matter to TSRA. The political projects we take on are issues our membership consider important. That's the way it should be. Our members carry the financial burden of defending and promoting gun owners' rights, so it is appropriate that we respond to their wishes. You not only are not a member, your email said you wouldn't join unless we supported open-carry. That indicates someone who is dedicated to one single issue, not the overall fight for the Second Amendment. If you want to join us in the fight, then join us, but don't try to set conditions for your membership.

Before someone takes this to a ridiculous extreme, I'm not saying that a single phone call from one TSRA member will be the basis of a TSRA legislative project. When I refer to our membership, I'm talking about something that is important to a large portion of our membership, not just a few. Since there is only so much political capital to be spent each session, we have to focus on projects that will result in the greatest good for the largest segment of our members.

BTW, in spite of what OpenCarry.org says Heller absolutely did not establish a right to open-carry. Heller was a "keeping" case, not a "bearing" case and that is clear as a proverbial bell.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

... no one has ever asked TSRA to take on open-carry as a legislative project.

Fair enough. So in front of God, Country and this Forum I would like to formally request TSRA take on open carry as a legislative project for the next session. Somewhat tongue-in-cheek but serious enough that I would kindly appreciate instruction on any formal process or procedure necessary to make such a request; and I will promptly follow through with a submittal .

Best Regards & God Bless,

Conagher

[Edited to delete my response. I'm through trying to give hints.]

Chas.

[TheArmedFarmer]

I mean no offense by this comment, but if you're not a TSRA member, then your opinion doesn't matter to TSRA.

No offense taken. It's reasonable and I wouldn't expect TSRA to lift a finger for a non-member. That's the way it should be. They should have replied, at least, and educated me on what they are doing to support the 2A.

You'll note in my email to them that I never mentioned open carry. My question was based around asking what the TSRA is doing to promote the keeping and bearing arms in Texas.

If you want to join us in the fight, then join us, but don't try to set conditions for your membership.

Look at my email to TSRA again, and you'll see that I didn't set conditions. I said his response will determine whether or not I will join. Had he simply replied with something like "Yes, we take it seriously, and here's some of the things we have done in the past, and here's what we're working on right now. I hope you'll join us in our fight!" I would probably be a life member right now.

Instead he ignored my email.

[phoneguy]

"....but Texas requires an
expensive permit, an arduous application process, and an
interminably long wait before you can bare arms...."


I know, I've been wanting to wear short sleeve shirts since I got here, and It's HOT in south Texas.



Sorry, just trying to lighten things up a bit.