Is Open-Carry Dead for 2009?

[Charles L. Cotton]

Is open-carry dead for the 2009 Texas Legislative Session? It’s too early in the legislative session to be preaching any eulogies, but if an email posted on OpenCarry.org is accurate, then that just may be the case. The email is attributed to Representative Debbie Riddle’s Chief of Staff, Jon English and can be found at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/22032.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I hope that all supporters of gun owners’ rights and the Second Amendment will take a step back from what has become a very contentious issue and evaluate what was done well and what could be handled better. If we don’t, then the old adage “those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” will take on special meaning in 2010 and 2011.

As a guy who fought for concealed-carry for fifteen years (1980-1995) during some very politically lean years, I know what it means to be passionate about an issue and how it feels to see your efforts fall short session after session. To open-carry supporters let me say that, while I disagree with you on this particular issue, I understand your drive, your current frustration and the disappointment you must feel. Many of you are veterans of the political wars and you know that passing any highly controversial bill usually takes multiple sessions, while others among you are getting your first experience in this arena we call Austin. Regardless where you fall on the spectrum of political experience, having to start over next session is not an easy pill to swallow. I know, I’ve had to swallow that same pill many times in the last thirty years and I'll be doing it again on some bills I wrote that won't even get filed this session.

I would like to offer these suggestions to open-carry supporters who plan to be around next session to promote your goals. First, take on the role of a statesman, as have SA-TX and Conagher, and try to sell your position rather than try to force it on someone else. If you are successful you have an ally, but even if you fail you have not created an enemy who may work against you now and in the future. The harsh rhetoric here on TexasCHLforum by some supporters of open-carry pales in comparison to that found all over OpenCarry.org. This serves only to alienate the very people you need to either be on your side next session, or at least not call their Senators and Representatives and tell them to vote against open-carry. It must be remembered that a large segment of Texas gun owners don’t support open carry. (I suspect it is well over 50%, but that’s just my opinion.) SA-TX and Conagher have played the role of peacemaker both here on TexasCHLforum and on OpenCarry.org in an attempt to unify gun owners. Their efforts should be emulated.

Don’t threaten Senators and Representatives with a proven record of supporting gun owners’ rights! This is perhaps the most distressing thing I have witnessed. Doing so diminishes your efforts and alienates both fellow gun owners and organizations whose help and support is vital to your movement. The worst thing that could happen to the open-carry movement is for the movement itself, as opposed to OpenCarry.org, to be perceived as opposing proven friends to gun owners. Let’s face it. People who do this are essentially saying that only their agenda matters and they don’t care if they harm fellow gun owners in pursuing their goal. Such self-centered thinking will only work to alienate the open-carry movement and guarantee its failure.

Actively support current pro-gun bills this session and in future sessions. Campus-carry is a highly emotional issue and it will face stiff opposition from the academic world, as well as “student government” that is merely a pawn of each school’s administration. Get on board with the employer parking lot bills so tens of thousands of workers don’t have to be disarmed and defenseless on their commutes to and from work. Make phone calls and send faxes when you see the “action needed” posts. Why should the mother driving her kids to school and herself to work unarmed because of her employer’s parking lot policy support your open-carry effort if you do not care enough about her life to get involved and help her reach her goal? Why should the adult college student support open-carry when you don’t support her cause, and you attack the A+ Senator who is going to try to make sure she doesn’t become a victim of a mass murderer on a Texas campus?

It is time for more people to follow the lead of SA-TX and Conagher and tell the radical open-carry supporters that their brand of activism is counter-productive and won’t be supported in Texas.

Chas.

[Oldgringo]

Well spoken !

[longtooth]

Good job sir. I would like to see OC but would never push it when there are far more necessary things to be passed.

[SkinnyB78]

[nitrogen]

Hopefully this is taken to heart.

[bubba1876]

I would much rather see campus carry pushed through before open carry. There is just something wrong with denying self protection rights of students, faculty, and staff just because they are on campus. Last time I checked, criminals and those psychos who shoot people up in suicidal acts don't give a hoot as to what the law is. I know this is another thread, but how many of these campus shootings (or future shootings) could have been stopped by a CHL holder. I think someone mentioned that the UT tower shooting in the 60's was stopped with the help of an armed citizen.

[SA-TX]

Thank you Charles for the kind words. Yes, in my opinion, open carry is dead for the 2009 session. As I said on OpenCarry.org, we (open carry supporters) failed to work with those who could help us. True, TSRA and SCCC may not have been in a position to help us this session, but these groups are very important allies that we need to be working with. TSRA in particular is the gatekeeper for pro-gun legislation (you don't have to agree to this characterization, but it is my own). We (OpenCarry.org folks) either were ignorant of the political rules or naive to think that 50 some thousand signatures on a petition said we didn't have to abide by them. I hope the lesson has been learned.

For my own part, I will continue to advocate for some form of open carry but will do so as a member of TSRA. I still believe that it is a good step forward for true 2A freedom in Texas and isn't the radical step that many think it to be. I still respectfully disagree with Charles that many more 30.06 signs would be posted. I continue to believe that open carry would be a big non-event just as it is in every other state and just as concealed carry turned out to be in Texas. Because so few will practice it, the "in your face" aspect and thus the possible reactions will be very limited.

I think there are 2 compelling arguments: 1) this is the true right protected by the 2nd Amendment because the SCOTUS has said that concealed carry can be restricted and 2) open carry makes gun carry in Texas much more practical. It is darn hot here at times and I don't like having to make a carry/no carry decision based on the weather. CHL holders wouldn't even have to carry fully open to realize the benefits as they could simply carry and if they are partially covered or covered at times, that's good enough. In other words, I expect that fully exposed "for all to see" carry would be very rare (but legal), but situational partially covered carry would be more common.

Open carry advocates need to learn the right lesson which is, IMHO, to work within the system for the change that we seek. We don't have initiative or referendum in Texas so signatures don't mean anything (unless it is a wet/dry election). Convincing MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE to support our position and carry a bill is the goal. TSRA is very effective at that. To my friends at OpenCarry.org, I say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". That is the only realistic way to win.

Charles, I look forward to gently bending your ear in the months and years to come about how there's no boogeyman here and the fear of the unknown is overblown. If I can't convince you, I'm sure we won't be able to convince the Legislature together. Here's to the challenge.

SA-TX

[Keith B]

Thank you Charles for the kind words. Yes, in my opinion, open carry is dead for the 2009 session. As I said on OpenCarry.org, we (open carry supporters) failed to work with those who could help us. True, TSRA and SCCC may not have been in a position to help us this session, but these groups are very important allies that we need to be working with. TSRA in particular is the gatekeeper for pro-gun legislation (you don't have to agree to this characterization, but it is my own). We (OpenCarry.org folks) either were ignorant of the political rules or naive to think that 50 some thousand signatures on a petition said we didn't have to abide by them. I hope the lesson has been learned.

For my own part, I will continue to advocate for some form of open carry but will do so as a member of TSRA. I still believe that it is a good step forward for true 2A freedom in Texas and isn't the radical step that many think it to be. I still respectfully disagree with Charles that many more 30.06 signs would be posted. I continue to believe that open carry would be a big non-event just as it is in every other state and just as concealed carry turned out to be in Texas. Because so few will practice it, the "in your face" aspect and thus the possible reactions will be very limited.

I think there are 2 compelling arguments: 1) this is the true right protected by the 2nd Amendment because the SCOTUS has said that concealed carry can be restricted and 2) open carry makes gun carry in Texas much more practical. It is darn hot here at times and I don't like having to make a carry/no carry decision based on the weather. CHL holders wouldn't even have to carry fully open to realize the benefits as they could simply carry and if they are partially covered or covered at times, that's good enough. In other words, I expect that fully exposed "for all to see" carry would be very rare (but legal), but situational partially covered carry would be more common.

Open carry advocates need to learn the right lesson which is, IMHO, to work within the system for the change that we seek. We don't have initiative or referendum in Texas so signatures don't mean anything (unless it is a wet/dry election). Convincing MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE to support our position and carry a bill is the goal. TSRA is very effective at that. To my friends at OpenCarry.org, I say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". That is the only realistic way to win.

Charles, I look forward to gently bending your ear in the months and years to come about how there's no boogeyman here and the fear of the unknown is overblown. If I can't convince you, I'm sure we won't be able to convince the Legislature together. Here's to the challenge.

SA-TX

SA-TX,

To reiterate what Charles has said, you are a very good spokesperson and a great voice for open carry. Your views are realistic, and I believe attainable if gone after in the proper manner. As stated, hopefully this will open the eyes of those who feel you can take a radical approach and bully folks into introducing and passing legislation. Maybe now they will see they must approach open carry with an open mind and move with the tide. Trying to paddle straight against it accomplishes nothing but making you extremely tired putting you farther out to sea. Angle into it and you can beat the waves and attain the shore you so wish to reach.

Thanks again for all of your posts. Keep us abreast of new information and things happening in that arena.

[flintknapper]

Thank you Charles for the kind words. Yes, in my opinion, open carry is dead for the 2009 session. As I said on OpenCarry.org, we (open carry supporters) failed to work with those who could help us. True, TSRA and SCCC may not have been in a position to help us this session, but these groups are very important allies that we need to be working with. TSRA in particular is the gatekeeper for pro-gun legislation (you don't have to agree to this characterization, but it is my own). We (OpenCarry.org folks) either were ignorant of the political rules or naive to think that 50 some thousand signatures on a petition said we didn't have to abide by them. I hope the lesson has been learned.

For my own part, I will continue to advocate for some form of open carry but will do so as a member of TSRA. I still believe that it is a good step forward for true 2A freedom in Texas and isn't the radical step that many think it to be. I still respectfully disagree with Charles that many more 30.06 signs would be posted. I continue to believe that open carry would be a big non-event just as it is in every other state and just as concealed carry turned out to be in Texas. Because so few will practice it, the "in your face" aspect and thus the possible reactions will be very limited.

I think there are 2 compelling arguments: 1) this is the true right protected by the 2nd Amendment because the SCOTUS has said that concealed carry can be restricted and 2) open carry makes gun carry in Texas much more practical. It is darn hot here at times and I don't like having to make a carry/no carry decision based on the weather. CHL holders wouldn't even have to carry fully open to realize the benefits as they could simply carry and if they are partially covered or covered at times, that's good enough. In other words, I expect that fully exposed "for all to see" carry would be very rare (but legal), but situational partially covered carry would be more common.

Open carry advocates need to learn the right lesson which is, IMHO, to work within the system for the change that we seek. We don't have initiative or referendum in Texas so signatures don't mean anything (unless it is a wet/dry election). Convincing MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE to support our position and carry a bill is the goal. TSRA is very effective at that. To my friends at OpenCarry.org, I say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". That is the only realistic way to win.

Charles, I look forward to gently bending your ear in the months and years to come about how there's no boogeyman here and the fear of the unknown is overblown. If I can't convince you, I'm sure we won't be able to convince the Legislature together. Here's to the challenge.

SA-TX

This reflects my position exactly.

As much as I want to see OC in Texas....I do agree with others...that NOW is not the correct political climate for it (especially as presented).

Flint.

[TrueFlog]

...and my position as well. For me, the right to open carry has less to do with full-on open carry and more to do with relaxing the rules on concealed carry to make it more practical. The option to partially conceal would be of benefit to all CHL'ers, even if they don't want to open carry. And there are situational concerns as well. I hate the idea of being in a cold restaurant with my girl and not being able to offer her my suit jacket (cover garment). She has to sit there and shiver while I look like a jerk for not helping.

I'd like to add that I'm unfamiliar with OpenCarry.org aside from what I read here. Regardless of what you think of them, please remember that they don't speak for all of us. There are many of us who agree with OpenCarry.org in our goals (i.e. passing open carry) but disagree in our methods (eg. threatening senators, etc.). To say "OpenCarry.org is bad, therefore open carry is bad" would be a mistake (specifically, it's a straw man). To say "OpenCarry.org are bullies, therefore all open carry supporters are bullies" would be unfair, and quite frankly, insulting to many of us. I'm not suggesting anyone here has that attitude, I just wanted to make that point.

[DKSuddeth]

Why should the mother driving her kids to school and herself to work unarmed because of her employer’s parking lot policy support your open-carry effort if you do not care enough about her life to get involved and help her reach her goal? Why should the adult college student support open-carry when you don’t support her cause, and you attack the A+ Senator who is going to try to make sure she doesn’t become a victim of a mass murderer on a Texas campus?

It is time for more people to follow the lead of SA-TX and Conagher and tell the radical open-carry supporters that their brand of activism is counter-productive and won’t be supported in Texas.

Chas.

can you point out to anyone here just where those of us who supported open carry did NOT support the other two causes you mentioned? or are those unsubstantiated claims of yours, much like the ones you accused me of in the other thread?

[Douva]

Why should the mother driving her kids to school and herself to work unarmed because of her employer’s parking lot policy support your open-carry effort if you do not care enough about her life to get involved and help her reach her goal? Why should the adult college student support open-carry when you don’t support her cause, and you attack the A+ Senator who is going to try to make sure she doesn’t become a victim of a mass murderer on a Texas campus?

It is time for more people to follow the lead of SA-TX and Conagher and tell the radical open-carry supporters that their brand of activism is counter-productive and won’t be supported in Texas.

Chas.

can you point out to anyone here just where those of us who supported open carry did NOT support the other two causes you mentioned? or are those unsubstantiated claims of yours, much like the ones you accused me of in the other thread?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." --Very old and very wise adage

[Captain Matt]

Doesn't that work both ways? I'm not defending the OCD leadership who shot themselves in the foot but what about the common man who wants to carry openly when he's in the boonies? He didn't attack progun politicians and doesn't make fun of people who want to carry on campus or leave a gun in their car at work but other gun owners can make fun of his viewpoint? I see lots of people here attacking open carry using the same tactics as the Brady bunch and that behavior is as unproductive as the OCD people bashing progun politicians.

Why should he call or write to support campus carry when there's no quid pro quo?

Why should he call or write to support parking lot carry when there's no quid pro quo? Especially when that law only benefits people who choose to work for antigun companies?

[Douva]

Doesn't that work both ways? I'm not defending the OCD leadership who shot themselves in the foot but what about the common man who wants to carry openly when he's in the boonies? He didn't attack progun politicians and doesn't make fun of people who want to carry on campus or leave a gun in their car at work but other gun owners can make fun of his viewpoint? I see lots of people here attacking open carry using the same tactics as the Brady bunch and that behavior is as unproductive as the OCD people bashing progun politicians.

Why should he call or write to support campus carry when there's no quid pro quo?

Why should he call or write to support parking lot carry when there's no quid pro quo? Especially when that law only benefits people who choose to work for antigun companies?

So, you're saying that people who support open carry should refuse to call or write on behalf of two other bills they presumably support, unless the people who support those two bills but don't support open carry agree to call and write on behalf of open carry anyway?

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to be picky about where they work. If nobody worked for an employer with whom they have philosophical differences, few people would work.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Doesn't that work both ways? I'm not defending the OCD leadership who shot themselves in the foot but what about the common man who wants to carry openly when he's in the boonies? He didn't attack progun politicians and doesn't make fun of people who want to carry on campus or leave a gun in their car at work but other gun owners can make fun of his viewpoint? I see lots of people here attacking open carry using the same tactics as the Brady bunch and that behavior is as unproductive as the OCD people bashing progun politicians.

Why should he call or write to support campus carry when there's no quid pro quo?

Why should he call or write to support parking lot carry when there's no quid pro quo? Especially when that law only benefits people who choose to work for antigun companies?

I don't see anyone using Brady tactics except a couple of the radical, in-your-face people who post here and are strong OpenCarry.org supporters. When open-carry supporters claim that unintentional failure to conceal is a real threat in Texas, that is using a boogeyman Brady-style threat. When OpenCarry.org supporters threaten pro-gun elected officials it hurts all gun owners. That's the point of my post. The division that OpenCarry.org and some of its supporters are causing within the Texas gun owning community is both counterproductive and dangerous. If you and others want to see open-carry in Texas, then this must change. I'm not saying you should abandon your goal of open-carry; I'm suggesting that the tactics must change to be successful

Now as for quid prop quo, no I do not agree that people who support campus-carry or the employer parking lot bill are somehow obliged to support open-carry. My comments were suggestions as to how Texas open-carry supporters can better approach this issue next session. The two mandatory elements are 1) be statesmen and don't try to force your opinions on other gun owners; and 2) don't threaten Senators and Representatives with proven pro-gun records. The third suggestion was to support campus-carry and employer parking lot bills and the rationale behind that suggestion is to try to bring open-carry supporters back into the mainstream of all Texas gun owners. Because of the radical minority, OpenCarry.org is perceived as caring about one and only one issue -- open-carry. They are also perceived as not caring how much damage they do to other gun owners in their quest to pass open-carry. If open-carry has any chance of passage in Texas, then the local (i.e. Texas) open-carry supporters must distance themselves from this image. Supporting other pro-gun bills without any strings attached is a good start. It's a matter of political damage control.

The real irony here is that I don't want open-carry for the sole reason I've stated before, but if the majority of our TSRA members want us to pursue open-carry, then I'm sure we will do so. I will put aside my personal concerns and will work as hard for its passage as I do any other TSRA and/or NRA bill. If we're in this position next session or any other session, I'd rather be operating in a less hostile environment than OpenCarry.org and the self-proclaimed radicals have created. As I've said before, if the entire open-carry issue is so tainted by attacks on our friends in Austin, and division among gun owners themselves, then no experienced person or organization will touch it.

Chas.