Why a Home Defense Shotgun?

[fickman]

Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

Most serious hunting and skeet/trap competitors I see use double barrel shotguns, not semi-autos. Even the Olympians all used over/unders. The simplicity of these is great, but they lack capacity and maneuverability for home defense.

I think the movie thing has been covered.

Rifles vs. Shotguns is like apples and oranges. I have a family member on a gang unit for a large city PD in Texas who also works with SWAT. . . their shotguns are all Remington 870 pumps. His two brothers are Marines and have spent a lot of time in Iraq. When they use a shotgun, it's a pump (I believe the military version of the Mossberg 590).

The issue with semi-auto shotguns is reliability. You need as close to a 100% guarantee that it will cycle properly without jamming the one time your life depends on it, and most semi-auto shotguns can't provide that level of confidence. I wholly agree that semi-auto pistols and rifles are perfectly reliable and benefit from the attributes you listed above when properly maintained, but they are a different beast. You are skipping an important step if you worry about the speed and accuracy of the second shot before making sure the gun will even be ready for a second shot.

[KD5NRH]

The simple answer from Clint Smith: http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now I really want to head out to the land with my wife's single-shot 20ga and see how fast I can get a second shot off.

[fickman]

The simple answer from Clint Smith: http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now I really want to head out to the land with my wife's single-shot 20ga and see how fast I can get a second shot off.

Cool clip. . . I'd be interested to try my dad's single-shot 16 gauge and see what I can do. Oddly enough, that sucker kicks more than my 12 gauges. . . if you can find the 16 ga ammo.

[KD5NRH]

Now I really want to head out to the land with my wife's single-shot 20ga and see how fast I can get a second shot off.

Cool clip. . . I'd be interested to try my dad's single-shot 16 gauge and see what I can do. Oddly enough, that sucker kicks more than my 12 gauges. . . if you can find the 16 ga ammo.

I will say one thing for all those little Handi-Rifle knockoffs; (hers is a Pumbaa, the Rossi off-brand) you'd better make sure both ends of the barrel are pointed in a safe direction when you break it open. That ejector's strong, and a high-brass hull to the forehead hurts. It'll toss a loaded round into an 8ft ceiling.

[Furyataurus]

I've got an upgrade for mine slated for this weekend, as long as nothing else comes up. I've been wanting a Knoxx SpecOps stock for my 870 for a while. In addition to the pistol grip (which means I need to practice some more once I get it ), it's got a recoil compensation system built in that is supposed to make even magnum loads incredibly easy on your shoulder. Cabela's carries them for $120, and I'm going to pick one up Friday or Saturday and hit the range.

http://www.knoxx.com/products/SpecOps_Stock.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've got a side saddle shell holder for mine as well, but haven't messed with the fore-end at all - I'm quite happy with the one I have on mine already. What kind of fore-end did you get, and what makes it better? I'm guessing that it's rubberized.

It is rubberized and textured and it kind of "sticks"???? to your hand which is a good thing IMO. I've played with a Spec Ops Knoxx stock and it seems nice, I haven't shot one with it yet though.

[jimlongley]

And his final point negates all of Stupid's remarks.

YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO RUN THE GUN YOU GOT!

[Stupid]

And his final point negates all of Stupid's remarks.

YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO RUN THE GUN YOU GOT!

1. you cannot compare someone doing match with some Joe/Jane who just wants a gun at home. Nobody disagree that adequate training beats everything. Hell, if you do enough training, you don't even need a gun at home. You can just throw a silver coin to knock your intruder unconscious. Shooting a semi auto is simpler and requires less training - this is an indisputable fact, which was my point

2. Semi auto shoots faster and for the shooter, it's easier to keep the gun on target and do follow-up shots. Again, an indisputable fact. I used The Matrix to show how slow a person could operate the pump. Don't get too far about this.

3. The sound of racking a shotgun would scare someone away - of course it would. It would scare a whole lot of RATIONAL people away. Well, if a person is rational, s/he wouldn't break into your house in the dark, would s/he?

In a gun fight, I am not claiming I know anything because I don't, the first shot is often the key. You know one major reason why perps shot more accurate than police? Because bad guys often fired first! Before the policeman could have any reaction, his/her body would have already been filled with lead. Don't you ever give away the advantage of the surprise!!! Action beats reaction! You want to ambush the bad guy and stop him/her before any harm is done to you.

[jimlongley]

And his final point negates all of Stupid's remarks.

YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO RUN THE GUN YOU GOT!

Shooting a semi auto is simpler and requires less training - this is an indisputable fact, which was my point

I dispute it, it's not a fact. A pump is no harder to operate, load, or keep on target than a semi-auto with the benefit of being able to rack the slide to clear jams. Nope, not indisputable, nor a fact.

2. Semi auto shoots faster and for the shooter, it's easier to keep the gun on target and do follow-up shots. Again, an indisputable fact. I used The Matrix to show how slow a person could operate the pump. Don't get too far about this.

I dispute this too, and the matrix shows nothing but the filmmaker's concept, not the true speed and accuracy of a pump vs a semi-auto. I have fired as fast as a semi-auto with a pump, and know others who have done the same. Attend a three gun match some time and see just how little difference there is between scores for pumps and semi-autos. Those scores are based on time and accuracy.

3. The sound of racking a shotgun would scare someone away - of course it would. It would scare a whole lot of RATIONAL people away. Well, if a person is rational, s/he wouldn't break into your house in the dark, would s/he?

Also not in the least indisputable, first of all, a rational home defender would do better to keep the gun with a round in the chamber, and just have to take the safety off, not have to rack the slide. Or are you suggesting that the semi-auto should be kept in conditon one while the pump is not? And if not, instead of having to rack the slide, you have to fumble, in the dark, with a little bitty cocking handle to charge the gun? Or are you planning for each to leave the action open instead, which subjects both to dirt entry and the semi to spring weakening.

Your arguments are unconvincing.

In a gun fight, I am not claiming I know anything because I don't, the first shot is often the key.

That's pretty obvious.

You know one major reason why perps shot more accurate than police?

I don't believe this is supportable, where do you get your data?

Don't you ever give away the advantage of the surprise!!! Action beats reaction! You want to ambush the bad guy and stop him/her before any harm is done to you.

Which is my point exactly, it doesn't matter what you use, learn it, know it, use it well, Clint Smith's demo with doubles and singles pretty much proves that, and that's a documentary, not a fiction movie.

The Matrix is nothing more than fiction, even the gun battle is merely staged, it proves nothing, "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." And then there are the hundred round magazines on the guns.

Don't give away the advantage of surprise (see above) and rack the slide, just quietly slip the safety off and take the upper hand.

And another advantage of a pump, semi-autos can't digest a mix of ammo, of different power levels, and lengths, they need to be tuned specific ammos, I have beaten Benelli semi-auto shooters that forgot this, shooters who would normally beat me only because they were better than me, not because they had a faster or better gun, and I beat them only because they had their gas ports set wrong. My Mossberg goes from target loads, to 3 inch 00 buck, to 2 3/4 inch slugs, to Aguila mini shells with no complaints at all, enabling me to set up a loading scheme based on what the typical home invasion scenario entails.

And I don't rack the slide and warn an invader.

[Stupid]

jim, we cannot continue this discussion without at least set some agreement.

Let's just agree that we all need to know how to operate your gun.

[jimlongley]

jim, we cannot continue this discussion without at least set some agreement.

Let's just agree that we all need to know how to operate your gun.

Which was my point to begin with.

[fickman]

Shooting a semi auto is simpler and requires less training - this is an indisputable fact, which was my point

I dispute it, it's not a fact. A pump is no harder to operate, load, or keep on target than a semi-auto with the benefit of being able to rack the slide to clear jams. Nope, not indisputable, nor a fact.

Using the same logic, Stupid (er. . . your s/n, not slinging mud here), everybody should have all double-action revolvers instead of semi-autos, since they are the simplest and require the least training of all and are actually the most reliable in the largest range of circumstances.

[Furyataurus]

Using the same logic, Stupid (er. . . your s/n, not slinging mud here), everybody should have all double-action revolvers instead of semi-autos, since they are the simplest and require the least training of all and are actually the most reliable in the largest range of circumstances.

I disagree. I have seen plenty of S&W revolvers at the range that couldn't close their cylinder because the gun was dirty and had trouble putting cartridges in as well because the revolver was/got dirty/fouled. IMO, revolvers require MORE cleaning than semi-auto's and I bought my HK and FN so I wouldn't have to clean them.

[magicglock]

If it goes bang, bang, bang and you are proficient with it......USE IT. Obviously I favor my Glocks but have considered a shot gun in the house. My only real reasoning for sticking with my handguns is that I have small children and MUST secure my weapons at all times. (Unless on my hip of course) A quick access safe next to the bed works better for me than trying to secure a long gun. If it were not for the kids, I would sleep with all of my guns so that I could pick the bad guys demise based on my mood at the time. LOL

[CHLSteve]

I disagree. I have seen plenty of S&W revolvers at the range that couldn't close their cylinder because the gun was dirty and had trouble putting cartridges in as well because the revolver was/got dirty/fouled. IMO, revolvers require MORE cleaning than semi-auto's and I bought my HK and FN so I wouldn't have to clean them.

Ugh.. really? I hope the gun you keep by your bedside is not "dirty/fouled". A revolver may require more cleaning, but at the end of the day a clean well-maintained revolver should be rock-solid reliable.

How about this--if you were to sit a loaded hand gun in the bottom of a dresser drawer untouched for three years, and then you had to draw and fire it with no inspection, which gun would you want? Five years? Ten? Many people don't ever touch their guns. I don't think my dad has touched his little semi .25 auto in over 20 years. I think a revolver would be the more reliable gun in that situation.

[flynbenny]

Revolvers are the best handgun for someone who shoots only every other year or so.


I keep a pump 12 loaded (no need to 'rack') next to me at night or anytime I'm home. I've been shooting pumps since I was a tyke and in fact every shotgun I own is a pump, so training and familiarity isn't an issue. I've shot virtually every kind of shotgun sport, and never found myself at a disadvantage because of using a pump. My current HD shotty is a Benelli SuperNova w 18" barrel, ghost ring rear, post front, and full stock. That new 'comfort-tech' stock makes even slugs manageable. Sine I live in an apartment, I load it with a round of birdshot (limited penetration thru drywall) in the chamber, followed by 3 full zoot 00 buck rounds, and a slug last. I have the spares in a cuff on the stock, 3 more buck and two slugs. If I still lived in out in the sticks, I might replace it with my AR, but for in the apt or in town, from 0-100 yds, I prefer a shotgun. I own and carry pistols because I can conceal them, but my weapon of choice for defence is ALWAYS a shotgun. And ditto the part about taking a class including low light, worth every penny.