Does your Carry/Defense Semi-Auto Function Flawlessly?

[JohnKSa]

So you have a carry gun that functions flawlessly? Or perhaps you have a new home defense handgun you would like to put through its paces to see how well it can perform? Then this will be a fun and informative match for you!

2008's ISHOT1000 match was a great time and yielded some interesting results (see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... p?t=292012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). There are still some guns left untested and some questions to be answered so we are announcing the 2009 IISHOT1000 to be held on 2 May 2009 in Forestburg, Texas. (Forestburg is north of the DFW metroplex.)

The purpose of the match will be the same as last year - 1000 round function testing of guns to see which makes and models perform best. The match will also be designed to challenge the shooter, to be entertaining and to provide useful trigger time.

There will be no maintenance of ANY kind allowed during the course of twenty, 50 round stages. Malfunctions will be recorded and the results will be posted after the match. While the last match involved a lot of blasting at various stationary and moving targets but no accuracy scoring, this match will include some specific stages that will challenge shooter skills and further test the performance of the gun. At least four stages will be competitive shooter stages, of which two will address speed (best time) and two will address marksmanship (best score/group). All stages will be shot with a time limit.

Requirements:
Semi-auto carry/defense handgun (.380 caliber or larger)
8 magazines that hold at least 7 rounds each
Holster (or appropriate case)
Standard safety gear (eye/ear)
1000 rounds of factory ammunition (Reloads did not perform well at all last year. The match is not designed to test the reliability of ammunition but rather the reliability of the handguns.)
No Entry Fee is Required
Awards will be in the form of certificates which indicate the performance of the shooter/handgun combination.

Email Double Naught Spy at IISHOT1000@gmail.com with your email address if you are interested in participating.

Hope to see you there!

[longtooth]

Second annual match of this sort.
As expensive as ammo is (even reloading) I personally dont have 1,000 rds laying around whose only perpose is to prove to someone else that my carry gun is reliable. First time I need 1000 rds in a fire fight I may go ahead & enter this match.

[philbo]

... First time I need 1000 rds in a fire fight I may go ahead & enter this match.

[bryang]

... First time I need 1000 rds in a fire fight I may go ahead & enter this match.

[flintknapper]

Sounds like an exercise to see who's weapon will fire the "dirtiest".

Too many variables to prove anything else IMO.

[Liberty]

Sounds like an exercise to see who's weapon will fire the "dirtiest".

Too many variables to prove anything else IMO.

It ain't about provin' nothin its all about braggin' rights. I learned something from the last time and I wasn't even there. The results were interesting.

[killerfly128]

Kinda tempting ... I didnt see any HK's in the last match's table. Maybe i can change that depending on if i can find cheap enough ammo.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sounds like an exercise to see who's weapon will fire the "dirtiest".

Too many variables to prove anything else IMO.

It ain't about provin' nothin its all about braggin' rights. I learned something from the last time and I wasn't even there. The results were interesting.

Like you said, you weren't there and so you have it a bit wrong. The old Glock v. 1911 matches were about bragging rights. While this match is a spinoff of those matches, it isn't about bragging rights. It is about seeing how well real guns work with real people shooting them.

Somewhere several years back, somebody came up with the notion that 1000 rounds was a nice performance standard. It was far below that done for Glocks and 1911s, but something folks could do in a day and so the amount has stuck.

What has been a real eye opener (for me) is how poorly a goodly number of Glocks actually perform when shot by ordinary people using factory ammo (even worse with reloads). We all knew 1911s weren't that reliable (LOL), but they have won many Glock v. 1911 matches despite the odds against them.

Even if you don't think it will prove anything or you don't think you and your gun have anything to prove, no problem. It is still a good time.

If you can't afford the ammo, no problem. I fully understand. Come on out anyway! It will still be a good time!

[atxgun]

Sounds like an exercise to see who's weapon will fire the "dirtiest".

Too many variables to prove anything else IMO.

I honestly don't understand what you mean by "the 'dirtiest'". But, as has been pointed it out, it's all just for fun. Sure this is a CHL forum and in that context firing is for self defense. But I don't think you, or anyone here, could deny you enjoy shooting just for the fun of shooting in an appropriate setting. It's ok.

Edit: this comment bubble up to all those you agreed to.

[JohnKSa]

My gun wasn't all that dirty after the match. I cleaned it at the same time that I cleaned another pistol that had been shot less than 300 times since its last cleaning. Fouling accumulation wasn't noticeably different although it did take longer to get the barrel clean on the 1K gun.

Secondly, the guns seemed to run better as the match progressed. The average number of malfunctions actually decreased over time. Apparently a gun doesn't need to be spotless to run reliably.

First time I need 1000 rds in a fire fight I may go ahead & enter this match.

HALF of the guns malfunctioned in the first 50 rounds. One (that had been improperly lubricated) malfunctioned on the 12th round.

Besides, it's not just the gun & ammo, you're also part of the equation. While you'll never need to shoot 1000 rounds in a defensive scenario, it's very common to have to shoot from awkward positions, while fatigued or after being weakened from injury. A gun that needs a firm grip to function reliably might not be the best choice for a defensive weapon, and shooting 1000 rounds in a day is one way to find out how reliable a gun is after you become fatigued.

Lastly, while you may not need or want to know about the reliabilty of your gun/shooter/ammo combination, there are others who do, and there are interesting things to be learned by all from looking at the post-match analysis.

[NcongruNt]

HALF of the guns malfunctioned in the first 50 rounds. One (that had been improperly lubricated) malfunctioned on the 12th round.

Lastly, while you may not need or want to know about the reliabilty of your gun/shooter/ammo combination, there are others who do, and there are interesting things to be learned by all from looking at the post-match analysis.

So do you mean to say that people actually go out and plunk down the money for 1000 rounds of SD factory ammo (Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, etc) and shoot it all at this match? I would think the incidence of that happening to be few and far between. I don't know what you carry, but 1000 rounds of my carry ammo (Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P) would set me back over $500. Folks shooting .45 ACP or .40 S&W would be set back even more. I'd sooner go buy a new gun than put that much money into the dirt in one day. Maybe some folks have money to blow on expensive ammo, I dunno.

I suspect the more likely occurrence is that folks bring WWB, Monarch, Blazer, Magtech, or whatever else is cheapest and shoot with that. While you may have hardware failures, ammo is just as critical a factor in firearm function and the fault of a failure can't always be determined definitively.

As for my own carry gun, it gets plenty of rounds through it every range trip, and has never failed in any condition. I'm quite happy with that, and don't feel I need to prove its reliability further. Were I anywhere near this event, I might consider going and shooting cheap ammo, but again it wouldn't determine performance with carry ammo. Then again, even cheap ammo adds up to at least a couple hundred dollars, and I could still go buy a used gun with that.

Edit: aaaaand looking at the last competition, no one shot carry ammo. Blazer, WWB, UMC, Wolf, S&B (probably the priciest ammo there), PMC, and unspecified reloads were it.

(source: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/att ... 1209468793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

[JohnKSa]

I shot some hollowpoint ammo through my Glock 10mm at the match last year--one box of the PMC was 170gr JHPs. And yes, that much ammo (even in FMJ) does run into some cash.

While you may have hardware failures, ammo is just as critical a factor in firearm function and the fault of a failure can't always be determined definitively.

There were no hardware failures (in terms of parts breakage) but there were lots of malfunctions. Some due to shooter issues, some due to improper maintenance, some due to issues with reloads, some probably due to the gun.

And while it's true that the fault of a failure can't always be determined definitively that doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned. It just means you have to be careful interpreting the results.

I'm quite happy with that, and don't feel I need to prove its reliability further.

It's funny how different people react to this match. Some seem to take it as a personal affront while others see it as a chance to interact with other shooters, spend a day at the range free of charge, and perhaps learn a bit about themselves and their pistol.

For whatever it's worth, NO ONE brought a pistol to the match thinking that it was likely to malfunction. EVERYONE brought a gun that they felt would get through the match without a malfunction. Only 3 of the 14 entrants were right...

I'd sooner go buy a new gun than put that much money into the dirt in one day. Maybe some folks have money to blow on expensive ammo, I dunno.

So when you practice you use ONLY self-defense style ammunition? Or do you, perhaps, find some value in shooting less expensive "practice" FMJ ammo?

There was a time that I shot only my chosen carry load when I visited the range. I can't afford that these days, but I still get in a good bit of valuable range time thanks to budget ammunition. So far, at least, I've never felt that any time spent at the range amounted to "putting money into the dirt".

[Double Naught Spy]

Sure this is a CHL forum and in that context firing is for self defense.

The 2008 ISHOT1000 had the theme of North Hollywood Shootout challenge and trying to make precision shots on moving targets, working our way back to 75 yards over the course of the day. It was a real eye opener for many as to just how hard it was to make a head shot on a moving target at 75 yards. The ground and backstop suffered greatly! Many of the shade trees along the range did as well.

Another neat aspect several shooters learned was just how badly their shooting prowess deteriorates when they are worn out. Few people opt to go to the range when they have had a very long day and are physically and mentally exhausted. So they are less than familiar with their gun handling skills under those circumstances. However, many of us do venture out for other things under those circumstances and it is nice to know the skill level at which you are capable. Sure, this can be done other ways, no doubt, but like I said, most people opt not to explore that realm on their own.

For 2009, we will add barricades, strong and weak hand shooting, as well as various shooting positions, but reduce the distances considerably. We want to challenge the shooters as far as making the day productive and interesting as well as challenging the guns.

[Liberty]

Sounds like an exercise to see who's weapon will fire the "dirtiest".

Too many variables to prove anything else IMO.

It ain't about provin' nothin its all about braggin' rights. I learned something from the last time and I wasn't even there. The results were interesting.

Like you said, you weren't there and so you have it a bit wrong. The old Glock v. 1911 matches were about bragging rights. While this match is a spinoff of those matches, it isn't about bragging rights. It is about seeing how well real guns work with real people shooting them.

I was thinking the folks that did well were holding their heads pretty high. Not so much that Glock vs 1911 bragging rights.

[flintknapper]

JohnKSa wrote:

So you have a carry gun that functions flawlessly?

This was the basic question/premise concerning last year’s event as well IIRC.
For the purpose of discussion we will assume that “flawless” means the weapon cycled and fired a round for each trigger pull. Anything else would be subjective, right?

The purpose of the match will be the same as last year - 1000 round function testing of guns to see which makes and models perform best.

This is where I question the validity of this “test”. It simply involves too many variables to be of any practical use IMO.

1000 rounds of factory ammunition (Reloads did not perform well at all last year). The match is not designed to test the reliability of ammunition but rather the reliability of the handguns

.
This is a good example of the “variables” I was speaking of. How do you determine (as a group, or individually) how well a particular make/style/caliber/etc…handgun performs if the testing standards are not the same for each?

I fail to see how an accurate consensus could be drawn (“which makes and models perform best”) if you don’t attempt to control the variables.

You and I might be capable of maintaining a good firing grip on a 3” inch 1911 for the entire test (1000 rds.), but another person (perhaps weaker/inexperienced) might not fire the first 50 rounds without a stoppage.

Can we rightfully conclude from this: A propensity of one gun make/model to have problems?

Maybe… your objective is to demonstrate that under severe conditions….shooting skills and weapon handling can have an adverse affect on reliability. Hardly an Epiphany.

I can see this event as one that offers folks an opportunity to come together, shoot an extraordinary number of rounds…and have fun. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I will take that same round count and apply it to some tactical/practical training.