This happened today...

[dwhitley]

I am fairly new to this forum.... I am waiting to get my CHL but should have my Utah real soon. I do carry with me in my truck and at my own business. I have got caught up in some of the post that said what if.... and I am now a firm believer that it happens fast... I dont think my description of the events is detailed enough to really get a good picture for all. I do think if others had not come along and me being there and seeing this and yelling HEY GET AWAY FROM HER.... it could have got worse.. the more and more I play it over I am sure he had a knife.... as he ran past me to get into the truck... but I dont think I would change it again. Had he been stabbing her or beating her.... Yes I would have taken my gun out and demanded him back away and if came at me then I would have shot. I was concerned with one guy behind me in the get away truck and this one running in my direction... but really I dont even think he noticed me when he past by me.. 3FT... he had a blank look in his eyes.... I just know we say and think things that does not always seem to go the way we think.... DW

[Purplehood]

I think you did the best thing you could.

Despite the fact that you were all shook-up afterwards (which is a perfectly normal reaction), you at least THOUGHT about the situation before taking any further action. I consider that the most important thing.

I realize that folks talk about "muscle-memory" and "immediate action" and all those cool phrases, but what it really comes to is what decision you make and how you take action on it.

I think you did well.

[txflyer]

As I've read through this, I've been giving it some thought. I put myself in the scenario and figure out what I would like to have seen myself do in this case. I am not saying anything about the OP's actions. I was not there and am not qualified to judge. I am simply trying to learn from the actions and prepare myself.

So: If what I see is a scum bag(s) committing a crime with a deadly weapon against another person, I believe it is prudent to at least draw my gun. I don't know the intent of the scum bags and I want to make sure I can prevent any further harm to the victim and/or myself. The intent is not to hold them, there are other more pressing needs (the victim for one). It's simply to scare them off and be ready for any action they may take.

Having the weapon out reduces my reaction time and its mere presence is usually more than enough to halt a crime and prevent further action by the scum bags.

It could escalate the situation, but the odds are strongly against that when looking at the research.

After the scum bags have run with their tails firmly tucked, it's a call to 911, put the gun away and tend to the victim.

[Excaliber]

I was concerned with one guy behind me in the get away truck and this one running in my direction...

You now have a very convincing first hand picture of the 360 degree threat environment I keep bringing up in my posts on managing real life situations.

but really I dont even think he noticed me when he past by me.. 3FT... he had a blank look in his eyes.

There's an excellent chance that he didn't see you at all. If his heart rate was above 145 beats per minute (and I'd bet money it was) he was experiencing tunnel vision, which subjectively looks like you're viewing the world through a cardboard tube like the ones paper towels come on. In this state, he would only be able to see whatever was directly in front of him. It's good to keep this phenomenon in mind, because when you're confronted by a violent individual at close range, sidestepping or deep ducking quickly can take you out of his visual area and he'll "lose" you for a second or two. This can be a major tactical advantage.

For those of you who have never been in this type of deal.. Let me say this your hands will shake like all get out. A real eye opener that is for sure

Hand or leg tremors are classic effects that occur during the adrenaline dump that happens involuntarily when we're suddenly confronted with a potentially life threatening situation. Loss of bladder and bowel control can also occur, along with lots of other physical and psychological phenomena that can really mess up your ability to respond effectively. It's worth the time to find out what these are ahead of time and how to best manage them ("what if" visualization, training, and heart rate control techniques.) Folks who think they don't need to pay attention to these areas either haven't had an experience like yours yet, or just don't understand the magnitude of the issues.

I'd be willing to bet that about 10 or 15 minutes after the event, you found yourself totally exhausted as if you'd been doing heavy physical work all day. That's the letdown from the adrenaline dump as it works its way out of your system.

[dwhitley]

Excaliber your right I actually about an hour later was asleep.... it does make you very tired...

[sar]

Running away=be a good witness and also prioritize getting to the woman to ensure she's ok.

Continued attack on the old lady=intervention to try and save her life.

In both cases dialing 911 ought to precede action

[Oldgringo]

Would a shot or two into the air (straight up) got anyone's attention and broken up the assault?

Yepper, it would. If the BG's then advanced upon you in a threatening and abusive manner, you could've exercised your constitutional and otherwise legal right to defend yourself and those around you.

See how easy this is - if you're not the subject and after the play is over.

[dwhitley]

See to me one of the reasons I did not pull out my gun, was I dont have the CHL yet... so to me I can only protect myself while in my truck if I understand the law... that was another reason I did not take it out. DW

[SlowDave]

Would a shot or two into the air (straight up) got anyone's attention and broken up the assault?

Yepper, it would. If the BG's then advanced upon you in a threatening and abusive manner, you could've exercised your constitutional and otherwise legal right to defend yourself and those around you.

See how easy this is - if you're not the subject and after the play is over.

Hopefully you're kidding. A buddy of mine took a rifle bullet through the foot standing at a racetrack out in the middle of nowhere, surely the result of someone far away firing "straight up" in the air. (That is, no one fired a gun in his vicinity.) From the trajectory, you'd guess that it probably missed his head by inches. Don't shoot in the air, please!

Other than this personal experience, I think the warning shot is legally... not helpful.

Oh yeah, I think the OP did an excellent job under pressure. Good decision making. I am also in the camp of having decided that I won't shoot someone to protect property. Class instructor said that generally, you can figure on a discharge of your weapon costing you $8k in legal fees regardless of whether you're right or wrong. Heck, I don't own many items worth more than that. Not to mention I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my life wondering whether my tv was worth that guy's life, scumbag or not.

[SlowDave]

There's an excellent chance that he didn't see you at all. If his heart rate was above 145 beats per minute (and I'd bet money it was) he was experiencing tunnel vision, which subjectively looks like you're viewing the world through a cardboard tube like the ones paper towels come on. In this state, he would only be able to see whatever was directly in front of him. It's good to keep this phenomenon in mind, because when you're confronted by a violent individual at close range, sidestepping or deep ducking quickly can take you out of his visual area and he'll "lose" you for a second or two. This can be a major tactical advantage.

For those of you who have never been in this type of deal.. Let me say this your hands will shake like all get out. A real eye opener that is for sure

Hand or leg tremors are classic effects that occur during the adrenaline dump that happens involuntarily when we're suddenly confronted with a potentially life threatening situation. Loss of bladder and bowel control can also occur, along with lots of other physical and psychological phenomena that can really mess up your ability to respond effectively. It's worth the time to find out what these are ahead of time and how to best manage them ("what if" visualization, training, and heart rate control techniques.) Folks who think they don't need to pay attention to these areas either haven't had an experience like yours yet, or just don't understand the magnitude of the issues.

I'd like to hear more about this. When I exercise, I regularly exceed 145 bpm heart rate but don't develop tunnel vision. Is this only when the 145 bpm is generated purely by adrenaline? (I've had short, sharp adrenaline rushes while exercising when I thought I was going to crash the bicycle, and still didn't get tunnel vision; that's why the "purely".) Is it possible for people to develop an ability to deal with stressful situations more successfully? I guess that could be that they've been in that type of situation so many times that either they can deal with the adrenaline, or their system doesn't dump in the stressful situation. Any evidence of this? (I'm thinking fighter pilots, veteran combat infantry...)

[Excaliber]

I'd like to hear more about this. When I exercise, I regularly exceed 145 bpm heart rate but don't develop tunnel vision. Is this only when the 145 bpm is generated purely by adrenaline? (I've had short, sharp adrenaline rushes while exercising when I thought I was going to crash the bicycle, and still didn't get tunnel vision; that's why the "purely".) Is it possible for people to develop an ability to deal with stressful situations more successfully? I guess that could be that they've been in that type of situation so many times that either they can deal with the adrenaline, or their system doesn't dump in the stressful situation. Any evidence of this? (I'm thinking fighter pilots, veteran combat infantry...)

Dave, you ask some excellent and insightful questions.

The effects of life threatening stress occur when a person is exposed to a sudden and unexpected life threatening situation and the heart rate goes above certain thresholds. The best research available currently holds that optimum performance will occur at between 115 and 145 beats per minute (BPM), although fine motor skills like those needed to reload a revolver one cartridge at a time will deteriorate in this range. Between 145 and 175 BPM, other effects like tunnel vision and auditory exclusion begin to occur, and complex motor skills (like the ones necessary to maintain the push / pull tension of the Weaver stance) will be severely degraded. At around 175 BPM, the perceptual effects are pronounced and cognitive processing is severely degraded.

Different people react to life threatening stress in different ways, but we all dump adrenaline and experience sharp increases in heart rate as well as quite a number of other physiological and psychological effects.

There is an actual difference in the blood chemistry of people who tend to excel at performing under survival stress conditions. One researcher was able to predict which candidates would successfully pass the Green Beret training course in a very high percentage of cases by examining their blood chemistry before they started. However, the major key for managing the performance degradation that comes with an adrenaline dump appears to be controlling the heart rate so it doesn't reach 175 BPM where the "bottom falls out" for most people, and many folks will "freeze" and become incapable of any useful action to save themselves. This can be done by training (so the situation isn't a complete surprise by something you haven't thought of before, and you have a ready to go plan for reacting to it) and by certain breathing techniques that can bring a rapidly escalating heart rate back under control.

What I've outlined here is a major condensation of a whole lot of research and detail, and while I hope I've provided some useful information, by no means have I done justice to the topic. There are a couple of excellent books that you may want to check out if you'd really like to gain further insight into performing well in survival situations. It's a fascinating area of study and provides great insight into what we see in the field. The two best among the ones I've read are:

Sharpening the Warrior's Edge: The Psychology and Science of Training - Bruce Siddle

On Combat - Dave Grossman

Both are readily available on Amazon.com.

[Oldgringo]

Would a shot or two into the air (straight up) got anyone's attention and broken up the assault?

Yepper, it would. If the BG's then advanced upon you in a threatening and abusive manner, you could've exercised your constitutional and otherwise legal right to defend yourself and those around you.

See how easy this is - if you're not the subject and after the play is over.

Hopefully you're kidding. A buddy of mine took a rifle bullet through the foot standing at a racetrack out in the middle of nowhere, surely the result of someone far away firing "straight up" in the air. (That is, no one fired a gun in his vicinity.) From the trajectory, you'd guess that it probably missed his head by inches. Don't shoot in the air, please!

Other than this personal experience, I think the warning shot is legally... not helpful.

Oh yeah, I think the OP did an excellent job under pressure. Good decision making. I am also in the camp of having decided that I won't shoot someone to protect property. Class instructor said that generally, you can figure on a discharge of your weapon costing you $8k in legal fees regardless of whether you're right or wrong. Heck, I don't own many items worth more than that. Not to mention I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my life wondering whether my tv was worth that guy's life, scumbag or not.

Maybe you're right. We should be shooting blanks in the ground not bullets into the air. I still believe that noise and light deters much skulduggery. Horn honkin' and finger pointin' doesn't hurt either.

You are definitely correct on the legal ramifications ($$$) of shootin' people - even bad people. Somebody will sue your donkey - that's what lawyers do.

[G.C.Montgomery]

In Houston... Beltway 8 and Wallisville Rd..... In the Lowes parking lot... I have to say I really thought about grabbing my gun, but I guess I thought it through and said they are no threat to me... so I will remain calm and let it unfold... I had my hand on it in my console in case they came towards me and my truck, but yes I am glade they did not.... Folks this will get your heart pumping hard... DW

I'm quite familiar with that Lowe's and the Walmart across the road. I can tell you all that aggravated assaults, robberies and even kidnappings have been rising steadily in the area since 2002. The Walmart across the road has been the scene of at least two kidnapping attempts and one successful kidnapping since 2004. The wife and I did lots of our grocery shopping there and it always bothered me if she went shopping without me.

Anyway, based on what you've described, I really don't see a reason to draw a firearm. But I am also admittedly prejudiced against being seen in public with a gun in my hand unless someone will immediately benefit from me shooting them. I think you made the right call for this situation. I also can think of several perfectly logical reasons the officer felt you did the right thing by not pulling out your gun. The first one that jumps to mind is mistaken identity.

Off-duty and under-cover cops get shot by other officers with boring regularity. Since you are not in uniform and not displaying creds, John Q. Public and Barney Fife have no way to know you are a good guy. With that in mind, either may hose you down in lead if they know there’s an assault/robbery in progress when they become involved and you are the only guy visibly holding a weapon and appear to be a threat to them or anyone else.

[dwhitley]

GC... My wife and I are just waiting for hour daughter to finish school... and then we are moving... Its not to bad, but I agree its getting worse... My wife and I both have the Utah license coming in a few weeks so we can carry on our person... But I dont let her go to the stores with out me... its just to crazy out there... Now.. DW....

[SlowDave]

Excaliber,
Thanks for the info. Very interesting. May have to pick up one of those books.