Had my first "incident" since getting my card a decade ago

[dihappy]

My Monday Night Quarterbacking says that you should never have been up on a ladder knowing he was on his way.

Second, I would have placed his stuff out quickly and stayed indoors.

IF i knew he was coming over, and STILL decided to be outside knowing his past and that the situation could escalate, i would have been armed with OC spray, knife, and weapon and used them as needed.

If he was walking up to me and on my propery, OC would have been in his face.


In the end, im glad your ok.

[Excaliber]

IF i knew he was coming over, and STILL decided to be outside knowing his past and that the situation could escalate, i would have been armed with OC spray, knife, and weapon and used them as needed.

Since this was not a deadly force encounter, I agree that an appropriate OC weapon would have been a very nice option to have - it could have been used to resolve the aggression without physical contact. However, as the threads on use of OC products point out, OC spray in a garage setting would almost certainly affect both the target and the user, which would degrade the user's ability to handle a continuing encounter if the OC didn't disable the aggressor. This happens quite often.

Kimber's LifeAct product, which uses a tiny pyrotechnic charge to eject OC in non aerosol liquid form in a very tight pattern out to a distance of 13 feet would be a good choice for this situation. I'll have to post a review on my testing of that device.

This post leaves me a bit curious, though - at what stage of escalation would you bring the knife into play, and how would you use it - as a step between OC and a firearm, as a last ditch option if you lost control of the gun, or in some other role?

My Monday Night Quarterbacking says that you should never have been up on a ladder knowing he was on his way.

Humanphibian acknowledged in his very early posts that this was a major tactical error. Once it's been made and the situation is rolling, you can't call an alibi and go with a do over - you have to manage the circumstances you face. Being prepared to recognize and overcome errors is part of tactical preparation, and I think Humanphibian did an outstanding job recovering from this one.

[The_Vigilante]

I hate to say this but this guy sounds like bad news and he may be better off out of the picture as far as you are concerned. As long as he is alive he is going to be a thorn in your side and someone you are always going to have to worry about and watch your back for.

[CainA]

I hate to say this but this guy sounds like bad news and he may be better off out of the picture as far as you are concerned. As long as he is alive he is going to be a thorn in your side and someone you are always going to have to worry about and watch your back for.

Yeah, that guy sounds kinda scary to me.

With all the history you have with this guy, if the opportunity (defending yourself) presents itself, I don't see you having a problem getting no-billed.

-Cain

[Excaliber]

I hate to say this but this guy sounds like bad news and he may be better off out of the picture as far as you are concerned. As long as he is alive he is going to be a thorn in your side and someone you are always going to have to worry about and watch your back for.

Yeah, that guy sounds kinda scary to me.

With all the history you have with this guy, if the opportunity (defending yourself) presents itself, I don't see you having a problem getting no-billed.

-Cain

Reality / Legality Check:

Use of deadly force in self defense is not an "opportunity" to eliminate an ongoing problem with a troublesome individual - it is a last resort when all other means have been exhausted and there is no other reasonable way to prevent imminent death or serious physical injury to an innocent person.

For the legitimate defender, the aftermath is still unpleasant or traumatic, longlasting, and expensive, even if his actions are eventually ruled justifiable - which may take quite a while. No sane and moral person would take this action in circumstances other than absolute necessity in a critical situation.

[CainA]

Poor wording on my part.

opportunity=situation

-Cain

[mr.72]

Does anybody think that a CHL holder has a moral obligation to maintain tip top physical conditioning in order to carry concealed, so as to be able to put off the use of lethal force until physically unable to stop the attack? My own answer would be 'no.'

On the contrary, I am of the opinion that we all have an obligation, completely unrelated to CHL, to maintain our physical fitness because it improves your ability to deal with an enormous variety of events in our lives.

Part of the reason some of us (like me) seek a CHL is because we don't want someone else to have to protect us, we want to take responsibility for our own defense and safety. Well being physically fit is another thing you can do in that same effort. Can you save someone who is drowning? Can you get yourself out of a burning building? Can you carry a disabled, injured, or otherwise needy person to safety?

I have evaluated this condition over the past 7 years and was alarmed and discouraged to find my answer is "no", and I have been compelled to improve my own fitness and overcome this limitation. One time my family and some other families were at Enchanted Rock and my daughter got stuck in a little cave. I was too fat to fit in there and get her out. Someone else had to do it. That was shameful. One time we were on a boat tour at South Padre Island and the stupid captain drove the boat out into huge wake that it cound not handle, and the boat took on quite a bit of water. I realized my young daughter at the time probably could not swim in this water and I was painfully aware that I could not save her if she went overboard. There are other incidents that got my attention as well.

Since then I have gained control of my fitness and I am now very fit, even if I may never be extremely thin. I found that you handle stress far better if you are fit, exercise regularly, and if you eat right. You do not get emotionally, mentally or physically fatigued nearly as quickly. I know clearly that I am much more capable of handing whatever difficult situation I get into, whether it is a physical scrap, having to render aid to other people who need it, having to deal with lack of sleep because there are urgent affairs that won't wait for me to deal with them, having to drive all night if I have to, having to maintain calm emotional state even when I have been under extreme stress, etc. Likewise I am not dependent on any medication or regular medical attention, I am always well-hydrated so I can go longer without water than your average person, I have trained myself to deal with hunger if need be, I can tolerate extreme heat and cold much better than most people, etc. I just figured that my own body is the main thing limiting my ability to deal with whatever life throws at me, so I should maintain it as well as you would maintain your firearm or your car or any other tool which you depend on to save your life.

I don't mean to pile on folks who obviously have physical impediments that they cannot overcome. One major thing we all must deal with is age. But most Americans have physical impediments that they can, and should overcome. It is laziness and complacency that keeps us in a poor physical state. You know who you are :) I am speaking out of my own experience.

[texasccw]

I think you are missing the point here Humanphibian. Why would he want to confront you again when he knows he will lose again? It seems that you guys are in the same circle. Do you think he is aware you have a CHL? Will he be armed next time?
I think he will try to get you where you are most vulnerable. Your fiance. She should be carrying a firearm with her in her car and in and out of your house (CASTLE DOCTRINE). You seem like a very smart guy and I am sure you have already discussed an emergency plan should anything happen again. The next time there is a confrontation with this guy he will definitely not want to lose. God bless you and your family through this mess. This ordeal must really be weighing on you guys.

[Humanphibian]

I think you are missing the point here Humanphibian. Why would he want to confront you again when he knows he will lose again? It seems that you guys are in the same circle. Do you think he is aware you have a CHL? Will he be armed next time?
I think he will try to get you where you are most vulnerable. Your fiance. She should be carrying a firearm with her in her car and in and out of your house (CASTLE DOCTRINE). You seem like a very smart guy and I am sure you have already discussed an emergency plan should anything happen again. The next time there is a confrontation with this guy he will definitely not want to lose. God bless you and your family through this mess. This ordeal must really be weighing on you guys.

I agree....If (when) we have to deal with this again, IMO he will do one of two things. First option, he will come after me with no notice or indication that he is coming. He has to realize that reasonably (thre is that word again!) he cannot go straight toe-to-toe with me and win. He will probably come next time with some sort of weapon....tire iron, bat, whatever....something. After speaking with the beat officers that secured the Criminal Tresspass document, I was told that after he received some brief "expanation" of what had happened, what was gonna happen, and what would happen if this occured again.... that he voluntarily signed the CT warning. There were some sublte inferrances that he may have been told just how frightfully close he came to being on the wrong end of a deadly force incident. He has been quiet as a church mouse this week. Not even a word. Second option would be for him to come after her. The police are aware of the fact that she is at home alone often. They make efforts to keep a VERY high profile in our area, even going as far as to sit in our cul-de-sac and do their paperwork. We have made efforts to change up her routine, and keep her moving in a random patterns as she goes about her day. She limits the time she is at the house by herself, and she checks in with my sister, who works from home and has a great vantage point to view who comes into the neighborhood, when she must stop by. We are making as many efforts as possible to reduce the risk....but he only has to be at the right time, right place one time to get the opportunity he needs to create havoc.

Our local PD also drives by his residence regularly to check on his location. He is generally at home lounging by the pool, bowling, or playing golf. He is on full disability for shoulder injuries, so he receives his checks, and lives a life of liesure at the taxpayers expense. His abuse of the SSA is another thing that torques me, but the Inspector General has been notified of his activities, so we will have to see what happens with that. If he is not at the residence...we get calls that he is out and about, and to keep an eye open.

My girl had expressed interest in learning to shoot prior to this event. Now.....she is chomping at the bit. She wants to get her a carry gun, learn how to "shoot" (not just operate her gun, and punch holes in paper), and get her CHL. I have spoken with Crossfire about getting her in the CHL class with them, and possibly even do the NRA Basic Pistol course. Crossfire was GREAT. I took my renewal with Linda and Marty, and the class was wonderful. I dont think it would be possible to find a better instructor "fit" for my Fiancee.

[Excaliber]

My girl had expressed interest in learning to shoot prior to this event. Now.....she is chomping at the bit. She wants to get her a carry gun, learn how to "shoot" (not just operate her gun, and punch holes in paper), and get her CHL. I have spoken with Crossfire about getting her in the CHL class with them, and possibly even do the NRA Basic Pistol course. Crossfire was GREAT. I took my renewal with Linda and Marty, and the class was wonderful. I dont think it would be possible to find a better instructor "fit" for my Fiancee.

I suspect you didn't have to go into any long explanations about why a civilian would want a CHL......

[Humanphibian]

lol...NAH, that one kinda takes care of itself.

[texasccw]

That is great news. My fiance also had some reservations about me carrying a firearm. She has warmed up to the idea and regularly asks me if I am going to take it for protection at work. She encourages me which is great. After our child is born she will be taking her CHL class so that she can protect herself as well. She is now more aware and we regularly talk about situations we hear about and about how people can be so oblivious to their surroundings. I hope it all works out for you Humanphibian.

[Target1911]

My Monday Night Quarterbacking says that you should never have been up on a ladder knowing he was on his way.

Second, I would have placed his stuff out quickly and stayed indoors.

IF i knew he was coming over, and STILL decided to be outside knowing his past and that the situation could escalate, i would have been armed with OC spray, knife, and weapon and used them as needed.

If he was walking up to me and on my propery, OC would have been in his face.


In the end, im glad your ok.

Have you ever been hit with OC? One thing you MUST remember is you may very well get the spray blown back on you as well in turn making you unable to defend yourself further. I think OC is a poor choice with very few exceptions.

To the OP.......I am glad you are ok.
You are very lucky. The Husband of a dear friend of mine was KILLED with a SINGLE PUNCH to the temple. A guy hit him and he was dead before he fell to the ground.

[i-c-mike]

1. IANAL, but from the facts as presented, I don't see a clean case for use of deadly force under the circumstances (no weapon, multiple attackers, disparity of force, etc.). One could make an argument that a single punch to the temple could create serious bodily injury, but it wouldn't be clear cut by any means. Keeping it on the hand to hand level even though you were armed showed great restraint. I hope this was documented in the police report - it may well come in handy later. Folks without your level of physical fitness and skill might well not have had this option, but you did and you used it to come out of the situation about as successfully as is possible under the circumstances. Outstanding work!

...

It would be wise to regard him as extremely dangerous. Special precautions should be taken at the two places where one can most predictably be found - at home and in the workplace. In your individual circumstances, there may be others as well (the gym, for instance). The danger will remain as long as the subject is focused on you and yours.

I am only speaking for myself...
While this is an interesting analysis, the first and last points are contradictory. Anyone who is extremely dangerous, and is attacking you justifies deadly force, provided that you were in fear for your life (I know I would be, I am way past my H2H days)

I lived this exact situation (wife's ex) in a state where all the law abiding citizens were disarmed, and deadly force was a remote and dicey option (from a legal standpoint) in the home. We had plenty of situations (especially the wife) where she lived in fear of what he was going to do next. This went on for 12 years. It's hard to make that call at the front end of the situation, but 12 yrs later, I would make no apologies for using the word "opportunity".

It sounds like the original poster (like we were) is forced to walk on eggshells around this guy until he decides that he doesn't want to be a bother anymore.

My heart goes out to you and your family, and may God get you thorough this.

[Excaliber]

1. IANAL, but from the facts as presented, I don't see a clean case for use of deadly force under the circumstances (no weapon, multiple attackers, disparity of force, etc.). One could make an argument that a single punch to the temple could create serious bodily injury, but it wouldn't be clear cut by any means. Keeping it on the hand to hand level even though you were armed showed great restraint. I hope this was documented in the police report - it may well come in handy later. Folks without your level of physical fitness and skill might well not have had this option, but you did and you used it to come out of the situation about as successfully as is possible under the circumstances. Outstanding work!

...

It would be wise to regard him as extremely dangerous. Special precautions should be taken at the two places where one can most predictably be found - at home and in the workplace. In your individual circumstances, there may be others as well (the gym, for instance). The danger will remain as long as the subject is focused on you and yours.

I am only speaking for myself...
While this is an interesting analysis, the first and last points are contradictory. Anyone who is extremely dangerous, and is attacking you justifies deadly force, provided that you were in fear for your life (I know I would be, I am way past my H2H days)

I lived this exact situation (wife's ex) in a state where all the law abiding citizens were disarmed, and deadly force was a remote and dicey option (from a legal standpoint) in the home. We had plenty of situations (especially the wife) where she lived in fear of what he was going to do next. This went on for 12 years. It's hard to make that call at the front end of the situation, but 12 yrs later, I would make no apologies for using the word "opportunity".

It sounds like the original poster (like we were) is forced to walk on eggshells around this guy until he decides that he doesn't want to be a bother anymore.

My heart goes out to you and your family, and may God get you thorough this.

Welcome to the forum!

I empathize with the situation you and your wife suffered through. It apparently has some parallels with what Humanphibian is contending with, and I've seen all too many situations like it. However, this mustn't be allowed to cloud your thinking when making judgments on whether or not to use deadly force in a given circumstance.

Juxtaposition of two quotes taken out of context from my multiple posts in this thread may create the appearance of a contradiction. However, the statements in context are not contradictory.

The first analysis of whether or not justification for the use of deadly force existed at the time of the first incident was based on what was known at that time, and what happened during the incident. I stand by my analysis - there was no clear justification for use of deadly force at that moment, and Humanphibian used outstanding judgment and tactics to successfully recover from a dangerous situation..

The second later statement suggested a reasonable threat assessment posture based on the fact that the subject had escalated from a history of repeated verbal threats of violence to a physical attack on one occasion, and other information provided after the original incident which spelled out other risk factors for continued or escalated hostile activity.

There is an enormous functional difference between regarding someone as extremely dangerous for countermeasure planning purposes and having legal justification to use deadly force against that person. '' For example, even if you reasonably regard a person as dangerous, if he pushes or shoves you (unlawful attacks in both cases) this alone would not constitute justification to employ deadly force against him.

On the other hand, justification has to be based on articulable intent, ability, and jeopardy to inflict serious bodily harm or death on an innocent party in a given situation at a particular time in a particular place.

A reasonable belief that someone is dangerous and justification for deadly force may exist together at the same time, and again they may not.

A CHL holder is legally responsible for knowing when justification actually exists and when it doesn't. Even when justification is present, use of deadly force is often not the best option when other ways to navigate the situation safely are available. It should only be used as a last resort when there is no other reasonable way to preserve innocent life.