Good Argument Against a 6-Shooter

[KBCraig]

I don't have a six-shooter, but I recently had pause to evaluate whether the five-shooter in my pocket would be enough. It's a bit long to set it all up, so bear with me.

We were at Central Mall in Texarkana, hardly a hotbed of crime. My wife and I, and our 5 year old, were getting a late bite to eat just before the 9:00 closing time. I was waiting at the counter to pick up our order, while they were in the food court area maybe 15 yards away.

I turned to look their way, and my wife was asking one of the Chic-Fil-A employees to call mall security, because someone had just stolen a bag and dumped it in the trash can right next to her. As I was walking over with our food, the security guard was talking to her, and all of a sudden she pointed: "That's him, in the Longhorns hat!"

Security went over and escorted him over, as he was protesting the whole way. Meanwhile the girl whose stuff he had swiped came back looking for her bag. The thief insisted he had thought it was his bag he had picked up from her table, so I commented that he didn't really seem like the type to wear Victoria's Secret panties.

Here's what happened: two young couples were at a table, and when they got up to leave one of the girls left her bag of purchases behind. While my wife was watching, Bubba Stickyfingers walked up, snagged the bag, rifled through it (looking for a receipt so he could return the contents for cash, I imagine), then went to peep around the corner in the direction the couples had walked. He quickly turned, stuffed the bag in the trash can within arm's reach of my wife, walked quickly towards two of his buddies, then they all sprinted for the exit.

The victim got her stuff back, mall security made a note about the thief, and everyone left.

And we had to leave out the same door as the thief and his friends. And drive next door to the bookstore to pick up our daughter; the bookstore where the mallrats go when the mall closes.

So yeah, you can bet that my head was on a swivel, I was looking for cover, concealment, and tactical advantage, and I was hedging my bets on 5 shots versus possibly 3 attackers if they had waited around outside to get some revenge.

Turns out he's a big ol' chicken, though. The very next day we were at Wal-Mart, and my wife went off in search of headphones in the electronics section. She couldn't find any, so she asked a group of young guys if they knew where they were. Who should turn around, but Bubba Stickyfingers... who hastily mumbled "no" and beat feet.

[casingpoint]

“The state...serves to encourage disobedience to the federal Constitution which it is bound to uphold�

--U.S. Supreme Court Justice Tom C. Clark.

Texas, like most states, has simply got it wrong on weapons laws.

[Roshi]

A good shot with a revolver beats pray and spray with a semi-auto. Then there are those eight shot S&W .357's.

I agree with the post that noted just having a gun likely would have ended it or when the first one who decided to test you was shot, I think the others would flee.

[Chris]

I agree with the post that noted just having a gun likely would have ended it or when the first one who decided to test you was shot, I think the others would flee.

Show me the rare bad guy that's going to hang around after the first "BANG!" or two to wait and see if you run out of rounds after 5 or 6 shots, or scrutinize the weapon you have to see if he can hold out long enough for you to reload. That only happens on TV. "BANG!" = attention. Attention = witnesses and subsequent police presence. Witnesses = good police reports. Good police reports = eventual arrest of any and all bad guys partaking in said "BANG!". It is in every criminal's best interest to run when a "BANG!" occurs.

[lunchbox]

I agree with the post that noted just having a gun likely would have ended it or when the first one who decided to test you was shot, I think the others would flee.

Show me the rare bad guy that's going to hang around after the first "BANG!" or two to wait and see if you run out of rounds after 5 or 6 shots, or scrutinize the weapon you have to see if he can hold out long enough for you to reload. That only happens on TV. "BANG!" = attention. Attention = witnesses and subsequent police presence. Witnesses = good police reports. Good police reports = eventual arrest of any and all bad guys partaking in said "BANG!". It is in every criminal's best interest to run when a "BANG!" occurs.

do you really want to chance that???

[Excaliber]

Show me the rare bad guy that's going to hang around after the first "BANG!" or two to wait and see if you run out of rounds after 5 or 6 shots, or scrutinize the weapon you have to see if he can hold out long enough for you to reload. That only happens on TV. "BANG!" = attention. Attention = witnesses and subsequent police presence. Witnesses = good police reports. Good police reports = eventual arrest of any and all bad guys partaking in said "BANG!". It is in every criminal's best interest to run when a "BANG!" occurs.

(Sigh)

I wish life were that simple.

[bdickens]

Show me the rare bad guy that's going to hang around after the first "BANG!" or two to wait and see if you run out of rounds after 5 or 6 shots, or scrutinize the weapon you have to see if he can hold out long enough for you to reload. That only happens on TV. "BANG!" = attention. Attention = witnesses and subsequent police presence. Witnesses = good police reports. Good police reports = eventual arrest of any and all bad guys partaking in said "BANG!". It is in every criminal's best interest to run when a "BANG!" occurs.

I wouldn't want to count on that with gangbangers -- real gangbangers, not wannabees. They live in a culture of violence, are not afraid of violence, are not afraid of the police, are not afraid of guns and are not afraid of death. Yours or theirs. Tangle with them and you had better be prepared to kill all of them.

[Skiprr]

I wouldn't want to count on that with gangbangers -- real gangbangers, not wannabees. They live in a culture of violence, are not afraid of violence, are not afraid of the police, are not afraid of guns and are not afraid of death. Yours or theirs.

Not to mention that it's entirely possible they've been shot with a handgun before. Heck, it's a badge of honor. And they probably know a number of other people who have been shot with a handgun and survived.

Bottom line is that a handgun suitable for daily carry is a defensive instrument. If you carry an eight-inch-barrel .500 S&W Magnum or a .454 Casull, you might be exempt from that statement. Hm; guess what? The biggest, honkin', huntin' calibers are available only in revolvers. The .50 AE pales compared to the Casull or the S&W .460 or .500 Mag.

For Bubba Stickyfingers in KB's story, my Seecamp BUG would probably have been plenty of dissuasive firepower. And while I don't intend to run afoul of any hardened MS13 gangbangers in the course of my daily life, I have no delusions that they would be unduly intimidated by my .45 ACP carry pistol and the extra 16 rounds on my belt.

The reality is that we carry handguns because we don't have Star Trek phasers that can zap anything, are laser-accurate, and are as small as your BlackBerry. Handguns are the most effective defensive tools that we can conceal and carry easily. But they ain't magic.

I think sometimes we can lose focus that the Operator himself or herself is the most important line of defense. Training, intelligence, experience, and more training. If stuff starts to look really really shady, there are certain people on this Forum I'd want by my side...whether they were packin' a revolver or an autoloader wouldn't matter.

[NathanJK]

What a terrible story, I can see myself ending up in that same situation in a number of ways. If someone did that to someone I loved I would have yelled at them as well and incurred the wrath of their friends. So be it, you have to stand up for yourself and who you care about. I can also easily see myself throwing caution to the wind and jumping into the fracas. Not that it's smart mind you, especially since I don't have a CHL yet! At least I'd probably get the first one, although not having a knife (amusement park visitors tend to be disarmed by the metal detectors) would slow me down a lot from there on in!

[G.C.Montgomery]

Show me the rare bad guy that's going to hang around after the first "BANG!" or two to wait and see if you run out of rounds after 5 or 6 shots, or scrutinize the weapon you have to see if he can hold out long enough for you to reload. That only happens on TV. "BANG!" = attention. Attention = witnesses and subsequent police presence. Witnesses = good police reports. Good police reports = eventual arrest of any and all bad guys partaking in said "BANG!". It is in every criminal's best interest to run when a "BANG!" occurs.

Dude, you need to get out of the suburbs! I live in a neighborhood called Pleasantville but it sounds like you’ve spent too much time watching the movie. PLEASE come to my neighborhood…You have to realize that some people see the world very differently and may not value their own life quite as much as you value your own. Your post indicates you do not live in an area typically inhabited or victimized by gangbangers. So, let me offer a rebuttal as someone living in an area that has a well known presence of Crips and plenty of crime that goes well beyond burglary.

I think many areas like mine and those in which gangbangers thrive are victimized on both sides. Witnesses who talk to police often take their lives in their own hands because doing so can get them targeted by gangbangers who might otherwise ignore them. That isn’t made up, I’ve seen it happen. What makes it worse is that some officers, and sometimes entire departments, will fail to follow up on reports or witness statements because that particular patrol beat simply isn’t a priority. Worst case, the area may have been written off as a lost cause by a department’s leadership…Nothing like hearing something like that from a narcotics officer when asking why a local drug dealer living two houses down is still walking the streets. Again, please come to my neighborhood and let’s see if your theories hold water.

Now that I’m off my soap box, I’ll make a partial concession…One of the things that works in favor of the good guys is that most criminals are amateur gunmen and aren't exactly the world’s greatest tacticians. Can we count on this? Of course not but, it is still pretty rare for bad guys to think about how many bullets you’ve got and how long your ammunition reserves will last. On that thought, it is also atypical for the average moron robbing your grocery store to carry a reload for his pistol.

Now back to the gangbangers…While most may be amateurs, these guys do seem to have an understanding of contamination fire. If they are planning a hit, some gangs will pour boxes and boxes and boxes of bullets into house, apartment or just someone’s front yard. Collateral damage means nothing to them. If you are not involved but somehow get caught in a cross fire between two parties, these people will say it’s your fault for being there. There is no logic. They believe they have nothing to lose and the only thing they understand is strength and violence. Jail is little more than a vacation. Death simply an end to a life they don’t value anyway. Are there ways to strike fear in people like this? Yes but, WE as good guys would have to become monsters on a scale no decent person wants to imagine and then we would be no different than the bad guys.

OK, I think I’m done with deep thoughts…Please return to the original discussion of arguments for and against revolvers.

[casingpoint]

Witnesses who talk to police often take their lives in their own hands because doing so can get them targeted by gangbangers who might otherwise ignore them. That isn’t made up, I’ve seen it happen

Indeed it does: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 11SA9M.DTL

[Excaliber]

I think sometimes we can lose focus that the Operator himself or herself is the most important line of defense. Training, intelligence, experience, and more training. If stuff starts to look really really shady, there are certain people on this Forum I'd want by my side...whether they were packin' a revolver or an autoloader wouldn't matter.

+1, Skiprr.

Buying equipment is easy. Learning how to think your way through and out of a situation and use that equipment effectively is the tough and most important part.

Skiprr, you're welcome on my team anytime.

Not to mention that it's entirely possible they've been shot with a handgun before.

If they're true gangbangers and 18 or older, you can be almost certain they've been shot with a handgun, quite likely on more than one occasion, and they are not unduly impressed by facing another one. They see it as just a temporary tactical problem whose solution is a more vigorous application of ruthless violence. Expect that and you won't be disappointed.

One of the things that works in favor of the good guys is that most criminals are amateur gunmen and aren't exactly the world’s greatest tacticians.

While true enough in some cases, it would be a serious underestimation error to count on that. The guys who have lived through a few junior varsity firefights generally have a basic grasp of the importance of speed, aggressiveness, movement, and cover that goes far beyond the average CHL holder's understanding of these elements. (No offense intended to any individuals, but there's no getting around the fact that people who have survived real life exchanges of gunfire think differently than those who have only engaged flat paper targets that don't shoot back in a well lighted environment, with ear protection, and without multiple folks seriously trying to kill them in a low light 360 degree threat environment on turf the assailants are familiar with and the defender is not. Near death experience changes people.) At the distances you're likely to encounter them at, gangbangers' point shooting skills are plenty deadly. They don't have to hit you with all 16 rounds to get where they want - 3 or 4 will do just fine.

Watching security camera videos of gangbanger shootouts is quite instructive on how they conduct themselves: sudden start of violenced, extensive and rapid movement, high number of rounds fired by point shooting, usually one handed, and very short time frame from first shot to last.

Dude, you need to get out of the suburbs!

Thanks to G.C. Montgomery for providing a first person account of what it's like to live in a neighborhood dominated by demons that those without this experience could otherwise only theorize about. This insight is invaluable for folks who would like to gain a reality based understanding without having to live or work in one of those areas themselves.

[flechero]

My take is a little different than most who have posted on this.

Unfortunately I know a number of people who do carry semi autos and are grossly underprepared to use them in a SD situation. For most people with a CHL, additional training never actually happens. (members here are certainly not the "norm" in the state as a whole) Many lack the ability to perform flawless failure drills under life and death stress, not to mention many of the extra rounds could well be lost in a reload dictated by a first or second shot jam. I know far too few that clean carry weapons regularly. So given that ability to get of 5-7 shots without failure, a wheelgun may actually be the better choice for "most" people. I'm not in the military and not LEO so I arm for a much different set of circumstances. None of us is really prepared to be in the middle of a 2 gang crossfire scenario... so arguments based on that many BG's don't factor in to my planning.

Honestly, most of the time, a 5 shot .357 is all I can comfortably carry. I rest easier knowing that it greatly increases my odds of survival over my bare fists or a small folding knife, should I be confronted with a potentially life threatening situation.

[DoubleJ]

None of us is really prepared to be in the middle of a 2 gang crossfire scenario... so arguments based on that many BG's don't factor in to my planning.

doesn't need to be the whole gang, just a couple three guys from one side, and you're walking your dog at the wrong time...

[israel67]

Reminds me of that old math quiz.
If there are six crows on a fence and you shoot one.
How many are left?

Had an argument with a teacher once who swore that the answer was 0. I just simply couldn't convince her that the one that was shot didn't leave with the others.

Well, no. It fell to the ground dead. So it's no longer on the fence. So the answer is 0.