search by dog question

[smyrna]

As I understand the use of dogs to search for drugs, guns, explosives, or whatever...if the dog "alerts", then this gives the probable cause needed for a search by an officer. So here's a little scenario...

Let's say I'm at my kid's school to see a play. I leave my handgun in the car before entering the building. And, suppose the district officials decide to have the K9 units brought out to sweep for drugs and other contraband. What are the chances that a dog would alert on my handgun? Are the canine units THAT good? Now obviously, I would not be breaking the law, but would maybe have some explaining to do. But, what about the teacher who has a CHL? Seems like this could potentialy cause someone to have to reveal his CHL status and risk losing employment.

This just go tme to thinking as I know most schools and increasingly some businesses use K9 to sniff for contraband. Thoughts?

[srothstein]

If the dog has been properly trained to detect firearms, and is being handled by a properly trained officer, it is that good. It will smell the weapon and alert on it. This would not constitute probable cause necessarily since you may not be committing a crime. Since it is not illegal to have a gun in your car in Texas, the alert means very little. It can be argued that you have broken federal law (when you drove up), and are planning to do so again (when you leave), but since you are not at the car, you are not currently breaking the law by being in possession of the weapon. BTW, I do not recommend testing this law but I think it would be thrown out again if they tried to use it.

Usually, the dogs are brought around the lots during the day and are looking for guns and drugs and sometimes tobacco. They are then used for administrative punishment. I have some problems with this from a law enforcement aspect. If the dog is trained for too broad a set of smells, as in one dog for all three above, then the alert does not normally tell the handler what is in the vehicle. Thus, there is no probable cause for a search since the dog could be alerting on tobacco which is not illegal.

The problem is for the teacher or student who is caught this way. they cannot be charged normally, but can be fired or expelled.

[anygunanywhere]

I know of a refineriy that the company I work for has assets in that use firearms sniffing dogs. This is in Kentucky. They love to do this during hunting season and I have seen the dog working.

The dogs were handled by private security. If an LEO canine tags your car it is probable cause for a search.

Just to let you know, these canine searches can be set up easily. All the handler has to do is have the scent on his finger and touch the object being searched and the dog will detect.

I do not think that many dogs are trained for this type of work or that their use is very common. I predict it will become more prevalent in the future once one of the two demokrats is elected to the white house and the socialists take over veto proof majority of both houses.

Anygunanywhere

[KD5NRH]

I know of a refineriy that the company I work for has assets in that use firearms sniffing dogs. This is in Kentucky. They love to do this during hunting season and I have seen the dog working.

Sure would be a mess if some Bullseye got on the execs' cars, wouldn't it?

[KBCraig]

I've always had a problem with using K9s to establish PC. A K9 can't testify, nor swear out an affidavit for a search warrant. There is no objective way of verifying that the K9 signaled a hit; we have only the handler's word that the dog detected something. When a search subsequent to K9 detection turns up nothing, it's easily excused, but the unwarranted search still happened.

Using a K9 is a search, and should always be treated as such. I know the courts have ruled differently, but the courts have been wrong about lots of other things, too.

[SD4]

I have had this discussion with a military dog handler before. The way it was explained to me is that the dogs are usually trained for drugs OR explosives/gunpowder, but not both. In random sniff-searches, a dog's hit is more than enough to go through a car top to bottom. However, this is falling under the rules of military cops/military rules. Also, it was noted that the dogs will sometimes get super excited and home in on a leftover Mcdonald's bag crumpled up in the floorboard.

[Keith B]

Also, it was noted that the dogs will sometimes get super excited and home in on a leftover Mcdonald's bag crumpled up in the floorboard.

Had a officer friend who was a handler back home. He tells a funny story that confirms K-9 officers are still dogs at heart.

One incident they were sweeping a house for a BG. As they went through the kitchen, the K-9 officer (Greif, pronounced with a long I, like Gr-eye-f) nearly yanked his arm out of socket trying to make a snack of some Cheerios that had spilled on the floor. The handler got him back on track and they proceeded down the hall in the back of the house. About that time the BG came busting out of a bedroom and out the back door. My buddy released Greif to chase down the BG, and he started across the yard after him. Just as Greif passed a bush, a nice big cottontail rabbit came running out at a 90 degree angle to the BG. Greif detoured as he decided the rabbit would be a lot more fun to chase than the BG. Luckily his training kicked back in, and he headed his handlers command and got back on the BG. He nailed the perp in the tukis with a full set of teeth just as he was headed over the fence at the back of the yard.

And, to stay on subject, I doubt that just a gun locked in the car would be able to be triggered on. Explosives/firearms dogs usually need more than a mag full of sealed ammo to detect from outside of a closed and locked the car. Searching inside the car might be a different story.

[The Waco Kid]

Back when I was a senior in high school I was called out to the parking lot by the ISD police. The police had a K-9 unit doing random searches on the student's parked cars and the dog apparently had a "hit" on my truck. The police instructed me to unlock my truck, which I did, and they begain searching. I had been dove hunting the weekend prior to this and thought I had cleaned out my truck but missed one unfired #8 12ga shell. The officer claim that was what the dog alerted too, we would have to asked the dog to know for sure, but that was all that was found anyway. All that happend was I was told to do a better job of cleaning out the truck after hunting trips. Take the story however you want but I figure those dogs have a good sniffer.

[Keith B]

Back when I was a senior in high school I was called out to the parking lot by the ISD police. The police had a K-9 unit doing random searches on the student's parked cars and the dog apparently had a "hit" on my truck. The police instructed me to unlock my truck, which I did, and they begain searching. I had been dove hunting the weekend prior to this and thought I had cleaned out my truck but missed one unfired #8 12ga shell. The officer claim that was what the dog alerted too, we would have to asked the dog to know for sure, but that was all that was found anyway. All that happend was I was told to do a better job of cleaning out the truck after hunting trips. Take the story however you want but I figure those dogs have a good sniffer.

I wouldn't disagree with the fact the dog alerted on your truck. If you climbed back in with clothes on that had powder residue, then potentially that rubbed off on the upholstery and would be enough to catch. I could be wrong, but from what I have been told, a clean car with a clean pistol locked in the console would be hard to detect from outside.

[smyrna]

I've always had a problem with using K9s to establish PC. A K9 can't testify, nor swear out an affidavit for a search warrant. There is no objective way of verifying that the K9 signaled a hit; we have only the handler's word that the dog detected something. When a search subsequent to K9 detection turns up nothing, it's easily excused, but the unwarranted search still happened.

Using a K9 is a search, and should always be treated as such. I know the courts have ruled differently, but the courts have been wrong about lots of other things, too.

But then again, I also hate having to show ID for Sudafed because of the "tweekers". Privacy slowly eroding away...

I know from reading on the board that there are several educators with CHL and leave it locked in the car. I even know of a couple of administrators who CHL. It would stink if the dog alerted on one of their vehicles and exposed an otherwise private matter.

If the dog has been properly trained to detect firearms, and is being handled by a properly trained officer, it is that good.

That's truly amazing. Here's what is not so amazing or comforting for that matter...I was traveling through Love Field with a friend who had been to Afganistan. He mentioned that he was carrying a canvas bag that he used in Afganistan to haul around RPGs, grenades, ammo, etc. I asked him was he the least bit concerned that the bag might not pass the swab test for explosives. Hey said, "Nah, hasn't happened yet...been through a number of airports." Sure enough, I watched as they swabbed his bag and let us pass.