Are night sights REALLY necessary?

[RPBrown]

I do have night sights on my bedside weapon. It does make it easy for these old eyes to locate in the dark. However, I learned (almost the hard way) to also use a light. I now keep a surefire next to my weapon.

Short story, a year ago a crashing noise woke me up. Grabbed the Glock (with night sights) and did the search thing. Saw a shadow with some movement. Just before firing, it really started to move violently and I heard my puppy growling. Flipped the light on to find my new puppy was fighting with a shirt my wife had ironed and hung up. During here fight, a flower pot was knocked over. Since that time I now keep the flash light along side the Glock.

[flintknapper]

Chris,

Thank You, for your input.

I respectfully disagree that night sights are anything like "useless", but as I stated earlier they are best utilized under certain conditions.

I don't know what kind of NS you used but mine are very bright. A good example of when they can be of benefit.. is when you are in a darker portion of the environment than your target. Obviously, you need to be able to identify your target AND see it well enough to put the front sight on it. For those with night sights, go into a dark (or fairly dark room) and look into another room that has some amount of residual light, judge for yourself.

You didn't mention if you had any "help" on the house/warehouse "clearing", I hope so. Its foolish (at best) to attempt a dynamic clearing without a 3 to 1 advantage (if you can call it that). Night sights, or the lack thereof, would be the last thing on my mind in that situation.

As for tactics, unless they're unlawful...please feel free to share them. We can all benefit from someone else's knowledge. Unless you have very specialized training, its not likely that sharing it here will be a problem.

Thanks again for your perspective, and your service.

Flint.

many times there were two of us; on occasion, i was alone. in some areas you just don't have the luxury of having someone with you. i've been through everything from houses, wharehouses, and office buildings, to entire schools. most of the time i found nothing, but i've stumbled across people inside more than i prefer. sometimes they knew i was there, others they didn't until i found them. searching stuff by yourself is scary. finding someone searching by yourself is worse. i once searched a used car lot that had about 15-20 abandoned trailer houses behind it. i KNEW there were at least 2 people in the immediate area. i had a dead handheld radio and nearest assist was 25 miles away, but they were tied up. THAT sucks. i almost killed one of those damn cowboy silhouettes that leans up against the wall. when it refused to comply, i was fully prepared to shoot it until i got close enough behind cover to see what it was. no rollercoaster in the world compares to that feeling. fortunately for me, i scared those two off into the woods, rather than find them in an ambush. they slipped into the woods and ended up stealing a car about two miles down the road. irritated me off that i didn't find them, but probably best that way.

i've used meprolights and trijicons. i've used green dots, and a combination of red/green. the dots are just too small to really recognize. trust me when i say that you aren't paying any attention to the sights when things are bad enough to be pointing a gun at someone; particularly those tiny little dots. if you're willing to pay the extra money for another gadget, why not? there's nothing wrong with them, i just haven't seen that they give me any sort of practical advantage that point shooting doesn't cover. most people don't practice running away and shooting behind them. when you see a gun, you're not going to stand there like wyatt earp with them. you're going to be shooting while you run to get behind something. i've done a lot of side stepping for cover. i see all those range people doing their quick draw mcgraws and a double tap. when it goes down, it's probably going to take more than 2 shots, so it's probably not a good idea to just practice two at a time. mix it up. shoot 4 or 5. that's probably what the person you're shooting at is going to do, and that hesitation might be enough to be the end of you. you would be surprised with some of the crap that cops do because they're trained that way. if you get a jam, don't raise your hand and stand there like a fool waiting on someone to help you. fix it and keep shooting. i know of people that have been witness to that very thing in the midst of a shooting.

now what i have found to be somewhat useful (as ironic as it may seem) is a monster of a fiber optic tube on the end of my shotgun. when there is enough light to see your target, there is enough light to make that thing stick out like a sore thumb. for a police application, i've used that setup on felony stops where i have a lot of light flooding the area. strobes make that little fiber optic dot flash at you too. in a typical joe citizen encounter, you're looking at primarily defensive. police, you could have defensive and offensive. i pull a shotgun on a felony stop because i'm going to make a lot of threats to get people to do what i want them to. that's a circumstance where i have time to watch the front sight. plus it's a long gun. a pistol really is nothing more than a defensive tool.

as far as tactics, there are things i just don't want to share. but there are some things that can help you on room clearing. take bathroom stalls. if you shine your light on the floor under a stall, look up at the ceiling. you'll see the shadows. if anyone's in there, you'll see them before you open the door. doing a building search isn't "dynamic". that's what swat does. those guys like to do things quick and flashy. it's best to be patient when searching a building. if you were going into a room that had hostages, and the goal was to eliminate targets, "dynamic" is what you want. you want as many cops in that room and as fast as possible. swat tactics emphasize room domination. one guy runs to the center and the others come up on the sides. you dominate the room. in a building search, it's best to stay behind cover, and against the walls in the shadows. an officer i know on his very first building search went into a business. he swears he never heard the pop, but he did hear the whiz of the bullet going by. another friend of mine silhouetted himself against a glass wall shortly before it shattered with gunfire. if you open a door. stand against the wall nearest the door knob. if someone's going to shoot when the door opens, they'll shoot as the door starts to open out of that tiny opening. as long as you're not in that area, you're good to go. if you see cops knocking on someone's door, you'll see them standing a ways back from the door, but off to the side so if the door opens, the person inside would actually have to come out of the door in order to shoot them.

i hope i haven't butchered this thread too much. i've only been policing for 10 years, so i'm not even close to being good at this type of work, but i've picked up a few things along the way.

Agreed, searching/clearing by yourself is scary! Anything more than just a small room...and its nearly impossible to cover all the angles without exposing yourself at some point. Add "low light" into the equation and things get even tougher. You understand...I'm not advocating "dynamic" entry to anyone, quite the opposite of course. Some PD's have SWAT available to them for those times when things just can't wait, others do not. Even "Joe citizen" might be put in the unenviable position of having to rapidly enter a room/bldg. if a family member was in immediate danger.

My point was not to question or criticize your tactics, clearly...you have more than decent training. Rather, I wanted to point out that (especially) in low light conditions, you want all the advantages you can get. Many people who carry for defense have never had instruction on clearing a building...but I believe most understand: You NEVER want to do so, unless absolutely necessary.

The issue of "not seeing your sights" under stress is a reality. It it not impossible to do, but does require that you train yourself to do so. No argument that "point shooting" has its place. Naturally, accuracy degrades with distance and for most people it is probably not practical beyond 10 yds. if that much. At some point, it makes sense to look for that front sight, I know you'd agree.

If its already hard to notice your sights, then logic dictates that we use something to help attract the eye. White dots are popular (they work), fiber optics seem to help as well. For the same reason, does it not make sense to have GOOD night sights for low light?

Now, you and I both know that under stress, or when time is short, we tend to fixate on the threat. Personally, I don't think that is altogether bad. If it occurs to the point that you lose all peripheral vision or the ability to maintain a "ghost" sight picture, then there should be concern.
Again, it sort of suggests that something other than black sights might be beneficial.

If you practice enough that your muscle memory has you "right on" every time you push to the target....then my point is moot, and you have no need for sights of any kind. This will not apply to the majority of people however.

A very good point you raise...is the likelihood of your target moving. Probably, you will have no control over this. As concerns yourself, we do have control (if not otherwise restricted by environment or physical ability). For those with access to a range that allows shooting on the move, make it a point to practice shooting while moving laterally, advancing, retreating (especially retreating), shoot with one hand, weak hand. If moving targets are available, try them out.

When you say "people don't practice running away and shooting behind them", I take this to mean retreating (controlled) and possibly shooting as well. To literally "run" and hit your intended target is difficult, but I don't really know what they're teaching these days. For me, when its time to "run" I RUN! When I get to where I need to be, then its time to shoot.

Anyway, we have inadvertently changed the subject, but in the process I have learned something valuable from you. I'll probably never have to clear a bathroom stall , but the concept of bouncing light (to produce a telltale shadow) is a great tip/tactic, I can already think of other applications.

Thanks, for your participation and contributions.

Flint.

[flintknapper]

I do have night sights on my bedside weapon. It does make it easy for these old eyes to locate in the dark. However, I learned (almost the hard way) to also use a light. I now keep a surefire next to my weapon.
.

Excellent strategy. No one should be without a good tactical flashlight (or two).

I hope no one thinks that "night sights" in any way replace a flashlight. They simply provide a sight picture (on an already identified target) in certain conditions where you might want the tactical advantage of remaining in the dark. If not, use the light... which will apply more often than not.

Great example.


I'm gonna be late for Church....gotta go.

[yerasimos]

2) you need a white light for target identification (you cannot pull the trigger using night sights alone)

white light with a red filter works better. it doesn't crap on your night vision.

Well said, except that in an age of automobile headlights, streetlights, porch lights, etc, I figure my night vision will be sub-optimal from the start. And since the white light gives me that much more output and better target identification, I have chosen not to bother with a red filter. (If I was hunting feral hogs at night a mile or so from civilization, I could appreciate using a red filter, but that is not one of my hobbies.)

[flintknapper]

2) you need a white light for target identification (you cannot pull the trigger using night sights alone)

white light with a red filter works better. it doesn't crap on your night vision.

. (If I was hunting feral hogs at night a mile or so from civilization, I could appreciate using a red filter, but that is not one of my hobbies.)

Oh man! Don't get me started on hogs. Did I mention IH8HOGS!

[gigag04]

When you say "people don't practice running away and shooting behind them", I take this to mean retreating (controlled) and possibly shooting as well. To literally "run" and hit your intended target is difficult, but I don't really know what they're teaching these days. For me, when its time to "run" I RUN! When I get to where I need to be, then its time to shoot.

Actually infantry tactics would disagree. Though not directly transferable, the concept may applicable. When you start taking direct fire (ambush, sniper, assualt) your squad/team drops and starts popping of 3rd bursts aiming at whatever you can see. You lay a huge base of fire and then after 30-40 rds you click to single shot and point fire once its suppressed. As long as it is reasonably safe to do so...firing at some while running is fairly tactical.

Unless you're my best friend that was in Iraq for year (stood and fired back into direct fire recieved on cover-less bridge)...you (or a BG) will hit the ground when the firing starts...or also seek cover.

Am I on the right track Chris??


-nick

[flintknapper]

When you say "people don't practice running away and shooting behind them", I take this to mean retreating (controlled) and possibly shooting as well. To literally "run" and hit your intended target is difficult, but I don't really know what they're teaching these days. For me, when its time to "run" I RUN! When I get to where I need to be, then its time to shoot.

Actually infantry tactics would disagree. Though not directly transferable, the concept may applicable. When you start taking direct fire (ambush, sniper, assualt) your squad/team drops and starts popping of 3rd bursts aiming at whatever you can see. You lay a huge base of fire and then after 30-40 rds you click to single shot and point fire once its suppressed. As long as it is reasonably safe to do so...firing at some while running is fairly tactical.

Unless you're my best friend that was in Iraq for year (stood and fired back into direct fire recieved on cover-less bridge)...you (or a BG) will hit the ground when the firing starts...or also seek cover.

Am I on the right track Chris??


-nick

Gig,

I can appreciate what you're saying. I know full well what suppressive fire is, and what its intended to do. If this were the Soldier of Fortune forum, I would be inclined to agree. But, since this is TEXASCHLFORUM and we're dealing with handguns and limited amounts of ammo, I'm gonna stick with gaining distance, seeking cover, and returning accurate fire. But thats just me. Remember, you're directly responsible for every bullet you fire and what it hits!

Thanks.

Flint

[Chris]

2) you need a white light for target identification (you cannot pull the trigger using night sights alone)

white light with a red filter works better. it doesn't crap on your night vision.

Well said, except that in an age of automobile headlights, streetlights, porch lights, etc, I figure my night vision will be sub-optimal from the start. And since the white light gives me that much more output and better target identification, I have chosen not to bother with a red filter. (If I was hunting feral hogs at night a mile or so from civilization, I could appreciate using a red filter, but that is not one of my hobbies.)

my wife's co-worker just gave me a 15 million candlepower battery operated light. it seems to be a weapon in and of itself.

When you say "people don't practice running away and shooting behind them", I take this to mean retreating (controlled) and possibly shooting as well. To literally "run" and hit your intended target is difficult, but I don't really know what they're teaching these days. For me, when its time to "run" I RUN! When I get to where I need to be, then its time to shoot.

Actually infantry tactics would disagree. Though not directly transferable, the concept may applicable. When you start taking direct fire (ambush, sniper, assualt) your squad/team drops and starts popping of 3rd bursts aiming at whatever you can see. You lay a huge base of fire and then after 30-40 rds you click to single shot and point fire once its suppressed. As long as it is reasonably safe to do so...firing at some while running is fairly tactical.

Unless you're my best friend that was in Iraq for year (stood and fired back into direct fire recieved on cover-less bridge)...you (or a BG) will hit the ground when the firing starts...or also seek cover.

Am I on the right track Chris??


-nick

it's two different types of tactics for two different situations. police are not taught to gain superiority through overwhelming firepower, for the purpose of advancement. that entails laying down as much lead as you can in order to supress the enemy so you can maneuver against them. can't do that in the real world. take your typical traffic stop shooting. you've still got cars whizzing by with people in them. by running and shooting, i'm talking about your typical shooting distance of about 7 yards or less. in that more likely scenario, you're going to be shooting and moving backward to cover, or to add distance. 20 feet or less is just way too close to drop to the ground and try to have it out. it's also harder to hit a moving target. in a military scenario, you're ranges are probably going to open up to a minimum of 100 yards, with everyone carrying rifles, not pistols.

i don't know if you saw the video of the officers (one was killed) in california where the army guy shot at them with an sks. in that shoot, the looney saw the officers and immediately engaged and advanced. the police were retreating and shooting, while the thug was rushing them in a hail of bullets. he was using what the military teaches. you shoot as much as you can to supress so you can advance. the cops did what they were taught and sought cover while trying to engage the thug. you can see that the superior tactic in that case was to advance, but not only was it a surprise to the officers who responded to be engaged so quickly, but they were being fired at from the guy as fast as he could pull the trigger. that shows little regard for human safety, as well as a rather callous regard for his own safety. in the military, civilian casualties are known as collateral damage. in the police world, civilian casualties are known as huge lawsuits and career enders.

we often hear of civilians being killed in iraq from a marine unit who took fire, and we think, "well, it's a war zone and they're the military." if a couple of cops are fired at, they can't just open up in the direction where they think it came from.

[flintknapper]

2) you need a white light for target identification (you cannot pull the trigger using night sights alone)

white light with a red filter works better. it doesn't crap on your night vision.

Well said, except that in an age of automobile headlights, streetlights, porch lights, etc, I figure my night vision will be sub-optimal from the start. And since the white light gives me that much more output and better target identification, I have chosen not to bother with a red filter. (If I was hunting feral hogs at night a mile or so from civilization, I could appreciate using a red filter, but that is not one of my hobbies.)

my wife's co-worker just gave me a 15 million candlepower battery operated light. it seems to be a weapon in and of itself.

When you say "people don't practice running away and shooting behind them", I take this to mean retreating (controlled) and possibly shooting as well. To literally "run" and hit your intended target is difficult, but I don't really know what they're teaching these days. For me, when its time to "run" I RUN! When I get to where I need to be, then its time to shoot.

Actually infantry tactics would disagree. Though not directly transferable, the concept may applicable. When you start taking direct fire (ambush, sniper, assualt) your squad/team drops and starts popping of 3rd bursts aiming at whatever you can see. You lay a huge base of fire and then after 30-40 rds you click to single shot and point fire once its suppressed. As long as it is reasonably safe to do so...firing at some while running is fairly tactical.

Unless you're my best friend that was in Iraq for year (stood and fired back into direct fire recieved on cover-less bridge)...you (or a BG) will hit the ground when the firing starts...or also seek cover.

Am I on the right track Chris??


-nick

it's two different types of tactics for two different situations. police are not taught to gain superiority through overwhelming firepower, for the purpose of advancement. that entails laying down as much lead as you can in order to supress the enemy so you can maneuver against them. can't do that in the real world. take your typical traffic stop shooting. you've still got cars whizzing by with people in them. by running and shooting, i'm talking about your typical shooting distance of about 7 yards or less. in that more likely scenario, you're going to be shooting and moving backward to cover, or to add distance. 20 feet or less is just way too close to drop to the ground and try to have it out. it's also harder to hit a moving target. in a military scenario, you're ranges are probably going to open up to a minimum of 100 yards, with everyone carrying rifles, not pistols.

i don't know if you saw the video of the officers (one was killed) in california where the army guy shot at them with an sks. in that shoot, the looney saw the officers and immediately engaged and advanced. the police were retreating and shooting, while the thug was rushing them in a hail of bullets. he was using what the military teaches. you shoot as much as you can to supress so you can advance. the cops did what they were taught and sought cover while trying to engage the thug. you can see that the superior tactic in that case was to advance, but not only was it a surprise to the officers who responded to be engaged so quickly, but they were being fired at from the guy as fast as he could pull the trigger. that shows little regard for human safety, as well as a rather callous regard for his own safety. in the military, civilian casualties are known as collateral damage. in the police world, civilian casualties are known as huge lawsuits and career enders.

we often hear of civilians being killed in iraq from a marine unit who took fire, and we think, "well, it's a war zone and they're the military." if a couple of cops are fired at, they can't just open up in the direction where they think it came from.

Dead on Sir!

[jimlongley]

And all of this brings back around to the strategy and tactics of self defense in a low to no light situation. I'll stick to my night sights and flashlight for situations like that, even given the possibility of not even seeing my sights, I like to have every advantage possible.

[HOSSISFREE]

Consider this:

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it! Isn't that why we have a CHL?

With that said, they are relatively affordable.

Necessary or not depends on the UNKNOWN situation that may arrise.

As an Eagle Scout I say Be Prepared!

They work very well at night, and just the same during the day.

Why Not? I say.

[stevie_d_64]

I need to keep things as simple as possible.

Ray

There is always some little gem of wisdom in your posts there muh man!

[PX]

FWIW:

My response to "bumps in the night" would generally be my 12ga. High Standard (pump) riot shotgun.. I think a good 12ga. trumps night sights on any pistol/revolver.

If someone breaks into my home at night, my wife and I (both senior citizens) have a simple plan.

1. I put her little butt in the bathroom with her trusty Ruger Security-Six and the cell ph. (we keep in the bedroom). She call's 911.

2. I shut the bedroom door, ease down behind her side of the bed with my 12ga. pointed at the door.

3. Anyone who wishes to steal whatever crap they want in my home can have at it. I don't want to kill anyone over replaceable property.

4. Anyone entering thru the bedroom door without announcing and proving who he is will be on the receiving end of multiple rounds of #4 buckshot.

I have never had much luck with glowing nite sights and such on my firearms, altho I do have 3 pistols with lasers on them, (Sig P239/Bersa Thunder 9 UC/S&W model 638 Bodyguard) and when a shotgun is not available I would prefer the laser equipped pistols over any regular sights.

But that's just me.

Best Wishes,
JP

[HT]

I apologize for not contributing more to this topic. I am the one who asked the question. Very good thoughts and explanations. That's why I like this place already.

I did some snooping around last night in my house with a small flashlight and my unloaded gun with night sights. Even so I found it a little difficult to spot the dots. I did several dryfire scenerios. I'm going to be honest and tell you that I don't practice home defense scenarios at all. I think I will start now.

[ElGato]

PX, we could have been comparing notes, that sounds a lot like my plan, we keep the bedroom door locked when we are asleep, that gives us more time and I'm very hard of hearing. ( 60% service connected ) there's an 870 under the bed (and another in the truck), I have several gun's with nite sights and several good lights, if I need something I want to reach and get it, not be wishing for it!
I don't want nite sights to look and shoot through the sights, just to help know where the end of the barrel is, I shoot a lot at 7 and 15 yds with my sights taped over and I shoot skeet with the butt of the gun at my arm pit not my shoulder ( not trap and I teach the traditional stance ) I believe in shooting looking over my gun.