Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal

[frankie_the_yankee]

Frankie the Yankee...

a.k.a. - "Keeper of Topical Statistics!"

I think the security guard and armored car employees, with the ATM service folks is a great demography, much closer to our community in relation to their exposure to the general public than uniformed Law Enforcment...

A quick Google search brought this page up.

http://www.athenaresearch.com/research/ ... s_2001.pdf

Apparently, there were 40 bank-related armored car robberies in 2000 and 49 in 2001. So we know that people being openly armed, even when they have an armored vehicle at their disposal, doesn't always deter robbers. In at least these cases, the robbers took the presence of armed guards into account and committed their crimes anyway.

I don't have time to dig up all the info, but wasn't there an incident in Philly last year where 2 or 3 guards were ambushed, shot, and killed in an armored car robbery? OC sure didn't do them any good.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Well, to me logic would dictate that if there were ANY examples of an OC citizen being targeted, it would have surfaced in at least one of the gun boards I frequent by now.

Go to opencarry.org. There is an account of a guy who was OCing in VA last summer. He was walking down the street at around 3 or 4 in the morning when he was ambushed at gunpoint by a couple of guys who proceeded to rob him and take his gun.

Also, this incident was discussed in one of the lengthy OC threads on this site last Fall. It might actually be easier to find an account of it here.

So it does happen.

[flb_78]

OK, so let's try another tack. Do you see a difference between carrying a gun in public and buying a box of donuts?

Yes, Donuts are dangerous to your health if you use them as they are intended. My gun will not cause me any harm no matter how much I carry it or shoot it, as it is intended.

I'm just trying to figure out where you would draw the line.

I wouldn't draw a line. Why should anyone be allowed to draw a line on freedom?

I think everyone should carry a gun.

I think firearms handling should be taught in public schools.

[boomerang]

And as long as the license is shall issue, there is no infringement of 2A rights IMO.

So you're for everyone getting a license to speak their mind on an internet forum and having to pay the state for that "right"?

I mean, it's just a license, right?

No. I said I favor shall issue licenses for carrying guns.

You're going to love President Obama!

[frankie_the_yankee]

OK, so let's try another tack. Do you see a difference between carrying a gun in public and buying a box of donuts?

Yes, Donuts are dangerous to your health if you use them as they are intended. My gun will not cause me any harm no matter how much I carry it or shoot it, as it is intended.

Fine. So how about a box of oat bran?

But I guess your temptation to be clever trumps any serious discussion of the issue.

"My gun will not cause me any harm no matter how much I carry it or shoot it, as it is intended."

Another strawman argument. Pray tell, what does your statement have to do with the public policy question of whether unlicensed OC should be legalized?

I'm a lot more concerned with making it easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while carrying guns in public, and the harm that may result from that, than any harm to you from your gun.

[frankie_the_yankee]

And as long as the license is shall issue, there is no infringement of 2A rights IMO.

So you're for everyone getting a license to speak their mind on an internet forum and having to pay the state for that "right"?

I mean, it's just a license, right?

No. I said I favor shall issue licenses for carrying guns.

You're going to love President Obama!

Why? Does Obama favor shall issue licenses for carrying guns? If so, please cite the reference. AFAIK, he is against concealed carry entirely. So why would you smear me by making such a statement as you did above?

Or is this just another lame flame attempt?

[flb_78]

I'm a lot more concerned with making it easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while carrying guns in public, and the harm that may result from that, than any harm to you from your gun.

That wouldn't bother me because one is not a criminal until a crime has been committed.

In my happy little place, I'd like to think that if BG decided to quit lawfully carrying his gun and use it to do hold someone up, then 10 other lawfully carrying people would then stop Mr. BG with their guns.

Hopefully, Mr. BG would first take into account that over half the people in this establishment are carrying and that his chances of successfully escaping the establishment after committing said crime are very slim.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm a lot more concerned with making it easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while carrying guns in public, and the harm that may result from that, than any harm to you from your gun.

That wouldn't bother me because one is not a criminal until a crime has been committed.

The easier it is to commit a crime, the more crimes will be committed. Basic economics. Make it easier (i.e. less risk of being caught and thrown in jail) for BG's to blend in, and more of them will do so.

In my happy little place, I'd like to think that if BG decided to quit lawfully carrying his gun and use it to do hold someone up, then 10 other lawfully carrying people would then stop Mr. BG with their guns.

Hopefully, Mr. BG would first take into account that over half the people in this establishment are carrying and that his chances of successfully escaping the establishment after committing said crime are very slim.

The problem is that even where it is fully legal, only a tiny percentage of people carry guns, either openly or concealed. So the scenario you are describing is not realistic.

And I do not see any popular groundswell developing leading to significantly more people carrying guns than do so now - in TX or anywhere else.

The reality is that 1% or less (of LAC's) are carrying at any given time.

[CleverNickname]

IMO it would be more likely that the Texas Legislature would repeal the whole of PC 46.02 and allow unlicensed concealed carry before they would ever pass a law to allow unlicensed open carry.

[WildBill]

Comments removed in the interest of not contributing to the beating of a dead horse.

[NcongruNt]

Frankie the Yankee...

To all:

Even though I know this is an extremely tiresome subject, I have noticed that there is always a new twist or thought to all of them at some point...

No one has to give their desire or opinion either way on the issue, and that belabored part of the discussion is probably what tires most from threads like this...

I haven't seen anything new stated that hasn't been stated multiple times before in previous OC threads. Well, there's the box of doughnuts comment, but IMO that's not a substantial enough difference to warrant 6 pages of comments and yet another OC thread taking up space on the list of topics.

Here's a brief list of threads I found from a quick search where this topic has been hashed out over and over again:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... f=7&t=1875

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=10360

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=13096

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=13805

I'm sure I've missed plenty of OC threads, as they seem to surface every 2-3 months here.

If there's something significant in this thread that hasn't been stated in these previous threads, I have yet to see it.

[frankie_the_yankee]

If there's something significant in this thread that hasn't been stated in these previous threads, I have yet to see it.

1) This thread started specifically discussing unlicensed OC. I think that is different from previous threads that discussed OC in more general terms.

2) In this thread, I have been smeared by the claim that I would be happy to see Obama elected president. If I did something like that, I'd probably be threatened with being thrown off the board. But it seems to be OK for others to do that to me. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me too much, because it reflects more on the people who would make statements like that than it does on me.

I think I have an apology coming but I am not really expecting it.

3) I don't know that anyone attempted to calculate the probability (like I did above), using actual real world data, of a BG randomly bumping into an OCer when setting out to do a crime. In other threads, people would simply claim that since they have never heard of it, it didn't happen. Of course, they have to ignore the VA incident that I pointed to where an OCer was robbed of his money and his gun by a couple of BG's who were not deterred by the fact that he was OCing. And they have to ignore the fact that armored car guards get robbed and sometimes whacked in spite of the fact that they are OCing.

Other than the above, I tend to agree that we are just seeing the usual bumper sticker/strawman sound bites that we have all seen a million times before.

[Charles L. Cotton]

. . . 2) In this thread, I have been smeared by the claim that I would be happy to see Obama elected president. If I did something like that, I'd probably be threatened with being thrown off the board. But it seems to be OK for others to do that to me. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me too much, because it reflects more on the people who would make statements like that than it does on me.

The comment about you liking President Obama isn't close to smearing, nor is it close to comments you have previously made that that resulted in complaints to the Moderators. Knock it off.

Chas.

[flb_78]

We have 1 documented incident is which someone who was open carrying was attacked.

How many incidents have NOT happened because someone was open carrying? Kinda hard to get statistics about a crime that ALMOST happened.

I would like to take my chances with open carry. I would like it to be nationwide and with no restrictions what-so-ever.

[Right2Carry]

Frankie the Yankee...

a.k.a. - "Keeper of Topical Statistics!"

I think the security guard and armored car employees, with the ATM service folks is a great demography, much closer to our community in relation to their exposure to the general public than uniformed Law Enforcment...

A quick Google search brought this page up.

http://www.athenaresearch.com/research/ ... s_2001.pdf

Apparently, there were 40 bank-related armored car robberies in 2000 and 49 in 2001. So we know that people being openly armed, even when they have an armored vehicle at their disposal, doesn't always deter robbers. In at least these cases, the robbers took the presence of armed guards into account and committed their crimes anyway.

I don't have time to dig up all the info, but wasn't there an incident in Philly last year where 2 or 3 guards were ambushed, shot, and killed in an armored car robbery? OC sure didn't do them any good.

This is like comparing apples to oranges. These are planned attacks because the reward of large sums of money completely outweigh the risks associated with the robbery. This has absoutely nothing to do with OC'ing and the comparrison is just plain silly. These guys would have been robbed even if they had been concealing firearms. I am sorry but your argument doesn't hold water IMHO.