Interesting Conversation at the IRS Office

[tbranch]

I had to stop by the IRS field office in Farmers Branch today. Upon my arrival I parked in the lot, removed my weapon, and entered the building. I was asked to show a photo ID and removed my DL. The security guard saw my CHL and asked me if I was carrying. I told him that I was not and that I had secured it in my vehicle. I was informed that the parking lots were considered Federal property and that I could be arrested.

What's the rule here? I don't see this as being any different than visiting the post office and securing it in the vehicle since post office carry is questionable.

Tom

[Mike1951]

I trust you learned something here. The correct response is, "No, I'm not".

In many threads, LEO's have talked about how someone will talk themselves into trouble.

You offered too much information.

Others will respond to your question about the legalities.

[tbranch]

I trust you learned something here. The correct response is, "No, I'm not".

Mike,

No argument on that. Next time I'll be more careful.

However, the real question is, "does leaving your weapon secured in your vehicle violate 18 USC 930?" The law defines a facility as, "...a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties..." I just don't see how it extends to the parking lots.

http://capdefnet.org/fdprc/contents/sha ... sc_930.htm

Tom

[Mike1951]

I'll have to wait for someone else to quote scripture and verse.

There is a 'lawful purposes' clause in there somewhere.

[mr surveyor]

I still believe that the "post office" is a very different animal from the standard "federal property". The U. S. Postal Service seems to consider itself a semi-private organization from what I understand from talking to local postal employees. At least the postal employees will argue all day long that they are NOT employees of the federal governmant (unless they need something from the fed). It is really a screwed up mess - the postal service issue, as is the entire "federal property" concerns. I hope we see a day, soon, where these idiotic restrictions are completely removed for the sake of all law abiding citizens.... particularly in the State of Texas.

[RPBrown]

In some cases I would say yes it is federal property. If it is totaly owned by the feds then yes. If it is just leased then probably not.

Case in point, a couple of years ago, I had to go to the Federal Bureau of Printing and Engraving. Their parking lot had signs everywhere. I had to park across the street and cross heavy trafic even though they would not allow any cars inside the gate. I know its a little different but still federal property.

As stated above ---Too much information given

[kdom]

This is why I put my CHL in a opaque sleeve behind by DL - that way, if I have to pull the DL out for someone, they won't be able to see the CHL unless I specifically pull it out...I figure I show my DL at the bank a whole lot more often then I ever interact with an LEO, and why advertise to the tellers, but it would have helped in this situation...

[LarryH]

Did you have to pass through a security checkpoint to get into the parking lot? If not, it's my humble opinion that the security guard didn't know what he was talking about.

[Lumberjack98]

This is why I put my CHL in a opaque sleeve behind by DL - that way, if I have to pull the DL out for someone, they won't be able to see the CHL unless I specifically pull it out...I figure I show my DL at the bank a whole lot more often then I ever interact with an LEO, and why advertise to the tellers, but it would have helped in this situation...

I have my CHL right behind my DL and I have it turned upside down for the same reasons as above.

[anygunanywhere]

Reasonable restrictions. I find it amazing how "shall not be infringed" is ignored. Why should the feds be afraid of lawful gun owners? Why should lawful gun owners be afraid of the feds?

Anygunanywhere

[tbranch]

Did you have to pass through a security checkpoint to get into the parking lot?

No security and no signage. The first 18 USC 930 sign I saw was after I went through the metal detector. My instinct is that the parking lot would not be part of the "facility" as defined by the statute but next time I'll park in the next lot over and walk just to be safe.

Tom

[Keith B]

Reading 18 USC 930 subsections (g) and (h), it states

(g) As used in this section:

(1) The term ''Federal facility'' means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

(2) The term ''dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.

(3) The term ''Federal court facility'' means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

IANAL, but my interpretation is that 'facility' is only defined as the building, and notice has to be given per (h) by posting signage at the entrances, unless prior notice has been given. So, parking lots are NOT off-limits if I am interpreting this correctly.

[ELB]

I visited the Social Security Administration office in my little town, and was surprised to find a guard at the door. He called me on my Leatherman tool (!) on my belt as being a dangerous weapon, and I could be arrested blah blah, but said just take it back to my vehicle, which was in the SSA parking lot, so I guess his interpretation didn't include parking lots. Altho I DIDN'T mention any guns.

Lunacy indeed. But first, let's get the National Parks sorted out, and then finalize the D.C. ruling, and then....

[Charles L. Cotton]

If the only federal law prohibiting the carrying of weapons on IRS "property" is the general prohibition in 18 U.S.C. 930 (quoted by Keith), then it is not illegal to leave your gun in your car. I qualify this answer only because I don't know if there is a CFR provision that extends the prohibition to all of the real estate, as with the post office and NASA.

Chas.

[Paco]

As I understood it when I took my class is that the 30.06 sign would have to be posted at the entrance to the parking lot, to have the parking lot/garage included in the restriction.

Personally I think the IRS just wants to be the most dangerous entity in the building and being strapped you may pose more power than them.