Do you always follow the rules?

[frankie_the_yankee]

Many years ago when living in RI I had to manage some apartment houses my mom owned. They were in bad neighborhoods, and the type of places where the tennants paid by the week. I was over 21 and owned a 38 spl Colt revolver that I had bought for my 21st birthday "because I could".

It never occurred to me, but I could have easily met the requirements for having a "good and proper reason" to get a "may issue" RI Pistol Permit. But I didn't know any of that stuff at the time so I didn't apply.

But what I did know was that I was out at night time collecting cash in some pretty bad neighborhoods. I was also aware that I did not look like anyone who lived in those neighborhoods. And I had little doubt that people who saw me out and around every week had a good idea as to what I was doing.

So I figured I was a big time target to be robbed or worse. Not only did my mom and I need the money, but I figured I had a long life ahead of me and I didn't want to leave it in some alley over a few hundred bucks. So I started carrying the Colt in my waistband on "rent day" when I would make my rounds.

Under RI law at the time, I believe that carrying without a license was a felony. (The statute of limitations has long since run out.) But I didn't care. I did what I needed to do and hoped that things would turn out OK. As it happened, they did.

No one ever bothered me, and I never had to draw the little Colt (Thank God!). But it sure was a comfort having it.

And to this day, I see nothing whatever wrong with what I did. Sure it was partially due to my own ignorance, because I could have gotten a permit had I known to apply. But I was, as we all are, at least partly a product of the culture I was raised in, and that did not include the idea of carrying guns for protection.

Back in those days, for someone growing up in the Northeast, carrying a gun was something that private detectives did on TV shows.

[brewster]

And to this day, I see nothing whatever wrong with what I did.

Agreed. I would have done the same thing, Frankie. While it would have been an infraction if you got caught, thankfully it never came to that. That goes back to taking a calculated risk, and some circumstances should warrant it, and some don't. Every now and then I don't put on my seatbelt when I drive from one store to another across the street. Could I get caught or hurt? Yep. That's when the risk-to-consequence ratio comes in. I see it far less likely that I would be ticketed or hit by driving across the street, so sometimes I don't buckle my seatbelt to drive 50 feet. Legally, should I? Absolutely. if a cop were to ticket me for that, I pay a ticket. So, the consequence is much less severe than violating a 30.06 posting. Actually, the risk that I would get T-boned by another vehicle has a far greater consequence than handling a Class C misdemeanor through the mail.

With all that said, you have a good example which I think bolsters my point. I do think there are times and places where you have to make that decision. Those decisions should be made to cover the gap where the law ends and your gut feeling begins. So, kudos for your example. I don't think however, that strolling past an employer's 30.06 sign like it's some goofy company newsletter has the same merit.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I do think there are times and places where you have to make that decision. Those decisions should be made to cover the gap where the law ends and your gut feeling begins. So, kudos for your example. I don't think however, that strolling past an employer's 30.06 sign like it's some goofy company newsletter has the same merit.

I agree.

[aardwolf]

Who are we to decide what laws to obey and what laws not to? I'll tell you; violate criminal laws and you are a criminal.

Rosa Parks and me both.

[BShook]

What if your employer has a no-weapons policy but you have never been made aware of it?

My current company may or may not have one - I really don't know. I'm not wanting to ask... if I carry and have not been made aware of this policy am I in violation or not?

[brewster]

I'm gonna go kinda quick here...not going to split hairs on fine details, gotta get back to work in a minute. So please, no arguments from those who have nothing to do all day but play on the internet and google every Texas law out there. These are general truths:

#1. It should be stated in your personnel manual. HR should have a signed paper from you saying that you agree to follow all of the policies contained therein, blah, blah, blah. This is the ideal way to communicate it and it makes it easy on both sides.
#2. If they don't have that, they may have to prove that they have a policy and communicated it to you. (usually not hard, but not quite as clean as #1)
#3. If they have a big sign posted somewhere noticeable (not talking 30.06 here) like in the breakroom, then refer to #2. Proving you were subject to it may only require putting another employee on the stand and having them testify that the sign has been there forever will make a judge or jury think that only an idiot would miss it. If that's all that's required for federal workplace posters is to post it in a conspicuous place, chances are it'll work for the employer notifying you of anything else.
#4. Assuming none of the above apply, make sure you don't work somewhere that's covered automatically under law (school, horse track, courtroom, etc)., or see a compliant 30.06 sign on the door. In that case, a policy would be redundant.
#5. In Texas, employers can fire you any time for any reason or no reason (assuming you don't have a contract). So be careful either way. If they fired you for a policy that they didn't have and you can prove it, or if you think they violated your rights, then you may or may not have remedies under the law. If they fire you and leave the reason blank, then good luck with your job search.

Slight side note: our personnel manual says that illegal weapons are prohibited in the workplace. In that context, if there is no compliant 30.06 sign (there isn't), I'm not carrying a police asp or brass knuckles(I'm not), and I'm CHL (I am), then I'm LEGAL with my pistol, but subject to the same rules as being in public. No displaying, no printing, etc. Make sure you check for the distinction between legal vs. illegal weapons in your handbook if you have one. Also remember that in that context, a perfectly legal weapon in my hands would be illegal in a non-CHL holder's hands. Checkmate, the boss wins.

[BShook]

Thanks for the reply, Brewster... there is no sign anywhere forbidding firearms, nor have I ever signed anything or seen a policy regarding firearms... it's a small non-profit organization, and there's no law making it off-limits for CHLers.

I appreciate the input. :)

Please continue your regularly scheduled discussion.

[LedJedi]

A firearm is not a talisman that wards off evil.

oh great... NOW you tell me after I already bought this on ebay

[The Annoyed Man]

There's The Law, and there's the natural law. Rosa Parks broke The Law by sitting in the front section of a Jim Crow bus, but she acted in support of the natural law, which is that law which endows mankind with certain inalienable rights - including the rights to equal access before The Law, and to keep and bear arms. And she's just the first example that popped into my head of when a person, in good conscience, broke The Law, and still acted correctly.

In the earliest days of the Civil Rights movement, it was more productive for civil rights activists to act within the law in pursuit of their aims. Later, when it became productive to act outside of the law to pursue those aims, civil rights leaders still insisted on non-violent civil disobedience. And it was that the civil disobedience was non-violent which gave it its legitimacy. That is why Rosa Parks' action was legitimate, even though it was illegal.

Whatever the state of the CHL laws in Texas or in other states which have shall issue laws and regardless of the fact that they've been around for a few years now, public acceptance of concealed carry through the process of legal codification is still in it's relative infancy. Remember that for years concealed carry was looked at askance by a large part of the public, who saw no legitimate reason for why a person would want to carry a gun. This view has been constantly reinforced by the press. That is beginning to change, but we, as a community of gun owners and carriers, have not yet fully arrived at the point where the vast majority of the general public views it as either socially acceptable or desirable.

So given that, although there are legitimate arguments that one can make in favor of carrying regardless whether one is licensed to do so, one should also take into consideration what perception one lends to the right to carry movement in the eyes of others, if one is caught carrying illegally. For my own part, as long as I've been a gun owner, I have only carried illegally for very specific reasons, such as when making a late night trip to an ATM. I have also tended to avoid putting myself in those situations where I thought being armed was necessary. On the whole, I have avoided illegal behavior, including illegal carry. The odd thing is that, now that I am waiting for my CHL to arrive, I am much more conscious of the importance of behaving within the law than I was before. It is much like having a radar detector in my car. Before I got one, I used to speed routinely; not dangerously or recklessly, but speeding anyway. Then I bought a radar detector. The net effect was to actually make me slow down - even though that seems counterintuitive. So for my own part, I have no intention of deliberately breaking any laws when I finally have my license. I will respect .30-06 signs and any employer regulations. This is an "at will" state when it comes to employment. My employer is free to fire me if I violate his rules about carrying, including in my car on company property. Likewise, I am free to fire him for having stupid rules and to go seek employment elsewhere where common sense prevails.

That's just my 2¢.

[brewster]

Can't put it much better than that.

[TDDude]

I carry past the unenforceable signs everyday.

I've only busted through a 30.06 sign twice; once at our local YMCA to go in and pick up my kids, and once at one of the Houston medical center buildings. I was visiting a friend at his store and by the time I had seen the sign, my car was half a mile in the other direction and my friends business was 50' away so I went in. I think the sign at the medical center was too small anyway. It was next to an elevator and was about the size of an 11 x 17 sheet of paper. The one at the "Y" takes up half the window so I know it's big enough.

I understand the reasoning at the "Y" because they don't want a bunch of unsecured guns in the lockers while guys are in the shower. I guess that's the reasoning. I don't know and really don't care.

If I know a business is posted I simply don't go there.

Houston has so few posted areas that I don't even look for it anymore and it's very rare that I even see the sign.

I saw one of those fireworks warehouses near where I live and someone had put up a sign on the side of the building that had to be 30' tall with 3' letters that could be read from the highway at 70 mph. It said something to the tune of "THE UNLICENSED POSSESSION OF A FIREARM IS PROHIBITED. NO SHOOTING FIREWORKS WITHIN 1000' OF THE BUILDING".

The implication was that legal gun toters were very welcome and please don't use our product here.

Welcome to Texas.

[brewster]

A firearm is not a talisman that wards off evil.

oh great... NOW you tell me after I already bought this on ebay

Well LedJedi, based on inner city murder statistics; you should have known that thing wouldn't work! Seriously...nice way to inject some good humor on the thread.

[02transam]

well when i see the 30.06 sign it makes me glad i dont really need a firearm to protect myself. given a "slight" background and several years training in martial arts that i am confident i dont necessarily need a gun to protect myself or my wife. this no way means im going to try and be a hero but my pistol is there as an absolute last resort and for no reason other than that.