Elderly man fatally shoots 2 reported burglars--NEWS FLASH!!

[frankie_the_yankee]

I wouldn't give this guy a free pass. My sympathies are inclined in his direction, but absent the details it is not clear to me that he had justification to shoot.

Note, the shootings may have been justified, but also may not have.

It all comes down to the details, IMO.

If the BG's were running towards him, I'd be more inclined to cut the guy a break. But if they were just running away, or trying to, I'd be more inclined to bill him.

He really ran his mouth on that 911 tape. I got the distinct impression that he was chomping at the bit to go out there and whack those guys. And the very short time between the order to stop and the "Boom....... Boom.", raised my eyebrows as well.

I mean, did the guys even have time to stop?

[40FIVER]

So the operator was trying to calm a desperate man who was acting, venting and foaming at the mouth like a rabid pitbull that has been chained up and beaten with a whip. He just wanted to sink his teeth into something if you let him go, and the operator has to try to CHANGE his MINDSET.

Wow, you got that from the audio? To me he sounded like a man who was certainly excited, but nothing like you make him out to be. He's a guy who is sick and tired of the BGs having their way. Sure, the old man's adrenaline is starting to pump, but he was having a fairly polite conversation with the 911 operator, not foaming at the mouth.

This was a burglary and the man tried to get the police there in time. The police did not show up in time to stop the burglars from leaving, so the man went outside to do so. The burglars did not surrender so he could recover the property, so he shot them.

That seems clear cut to me.

Do we know that? We should see from the police report.

But now you can't see simple logic that srothstein is pointing out?

This is not a flame, Lucky45, just some friendly bantering.

[Lucky45]

he was having a fairly polite conversation with the 911 operator, not foaming at the mouth.

"You wanna bet, I'm a kill 'em' " sound like a real polite conversation.

This was a burglary and the man tried to get the police there in time. The police did not show up in time to stop the burglars from leaving, so the man went outside to do so. The burglars did not surrender so he could recover the property, so he shot them.

That seems clear cut to me.

Do we know that? We should see from the police report.

But now you can't see simple logic that srothstein is pointing out?

This is not a flame, Lucky45, just some friendly bantering.

What are you talking about? I highlighted the part that was questionable. I never claimed he was wrong, I said the police report would prove or disprove that fact. And the 100% way of proving it is with that "NEW" invention called GPS. Don't know if Pasadena PD's car are equipped with GPS, but they can match timelines with location of each car. Then prove if the PD showed up on time. Hopefully all is including in that report. Which side will use this info in their case??

[frankie_the_yankee]

From the 911 tape, two things are obvious.

1) It took over 7 minutes for the cops to get there.

2) They apparently did not get there in time to stop the BG's from getting away because the BG's were getting away when the old guy went outside.

Possibly the cops got there just as the BG's were trying to make their escape. Unfortunately for the BG's, the old guy got there just a smidgen earlier.

Whether the police response time was "OK" or "reasonable" is a subjective judgement. I remember reading that in Austin the average response time was around 7 or 8 minutes at one time. Is this an "OK" response time? Who knows? It depends on how you define "OK". And that is at least somewhat arbitrary.

All I know is that 7 or 8 minutes is far too long to have to deal with one or more BG's without being suitably armed. Even 1 minute can be a very long time in some circumstances.

When you come right down to it, that's why we own guns, right?

[Photoman]

2) They apparently did not get there in time to stop the BG's from getting away because the BG's were getting away when the old guy went outside.

We may find out that there were undercover cops on the scene before the BG's come out of the house. The shooter very well may have screwed up a good, clean, no harm grab by running outside with a gun.

[hkmp5s]

Well I just heard the 911 call and I think he is screwed. Old chuck the D A is going to go after him Big time. He has been waiting for a test case on our new state gun laws just to show us gun owners who is in charge.

He has? I don't think Chuckie is all that crazy about dragging up that old horse again. He got bit pretty hard and embarrassed, I don't believe he wants the voter reminded about what an idiot he had been. Have you noticed he hasn't been very flaboyant to the press for a while? In the mean time I can't see where this incident has much to do with any of the new gun laws.

Liberty thats a good point but I think old Chuckie is dumb enough and arrogant enough to try to get some mileage out of this case in particular. I hope I am wrong.
I'm kinda unsure about the legal definitions of burglary, robbery and theft and what if any diffrence this happening in daylight verses night time?

[Lucky45]

You know what is amazing is that through out this discussion, I have hardly seen the ole saying of "just being a good witness." What happened to that battle cry? I know I have seen it 1000 times in this entire forum. How many of you guys will jump up with a firearm and use deadly force to protect the property of a neighbor that you don't know??? Now give the true answer, not your moral answer. Because I would like to end world hunger too, doesn't mean I'm giving away my paycheck.

We may find out that there were undercover cops on the scene before the BG's come out of the house.

I'm waiting to hear the details on that also.

Joe Horn releasing a statement through an attorney. “Any loss of life casts permanent devastation over the lives of everyone involved. The events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life. My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased.�

Now here goes the damage control and media PR campaign. I love when people make public statements in the media that they don't mean because they want to use it in the future to gain leniency.

[Liberty]

You know what is amazing is that through out this discussion, I have hardly seen the ole saying of "just being a good witness." What happened to that battle cry? I know I have seen it 1000 times in this entire forum. How many of you guys will jump up with a firearm and use deadly force to protect the property of a neighbor that you don't know??? Now give the true answer, not your moral answer. Because I would like to end world hunger too, doesn't mean I'm giving away my paycheck.

He did know the neighbor, and the neighbor did ask him to keep an eye out on the property. From what I can tell I don't think the guy should have shot them, But I think he was legally justified to do so. Lots of people rip us off in our lives, I wouldn't want to kill every tax man, banker, insurance agent, or other petty thief that has burned me. but I don't mourn much when they meet an approriate demise. These bad guys, aren't much bother to their communities anymore. I guess thats a good thing, but I wouldn't want to have any part of their demise.

[stevie_d_64]

Ok,

Apparently from what I've seen and heard in many different forums on this incident...That the news media has a few "different" cuts on the 911 tape...

The link to the 911 tape on this thread, I heard the man say that he "DIDN'T" know the neighbors where the burglary was taking place, and that he did know some neighbor across the street from them...

thats what I heard in the link on this thread...

When everything comes out in the wash, I'm sure we'll all be on the same page at that time...

BTW, if you notice that the man went outside, tried to stop the burglars, shot them when they didn'y comply with his instructions and apparently made a threatening advance on him, he then came back inside his house, put the shotgun down, then went back outside where the police "just" showed up...

Whether those were the plainclothes officers, I have not been able to determine that yet...But I seriously doubt that if anyone uniformed or not, would have allowed that shoot to take place...We would certainly know otherwise by now (maybe a little later) if any responding officers had actually witnessed the shooting...

A lot is still up in the air, and I believe our analysis so far, based upon what we know right here in this thread is still pretty good...

I believe we all know this is a messed up deal for everyone involved...

But the good thing about this is that we are all witness to a situation where we all can apply some of the things we know about already, to keep something like this from going bad for one of us, if Heaven forbid, this ever happens to one of us!

[elwood blooz]

You have to feel for the guy, said too much, no doubt. He did say he did not know that neighbor very well, but the neighbor next to the home being burglarized.

He also noted the BG had a crowbar; this is what was used to break in the window for access into the home. Towards the end of tape after the shots were fired, he claimed the BG came towards him in his yard, he had no choice. Does the crowbar come into play? Was it visible to Mr. Horn when the BG were coming towards him in his yard?

[flb_78]

I'm 100 percent behind this guy. I hear people saying that "it's not worth it", "that's what insurance is for". I don't agree with that at all. Those 2 pieces of garbage were in the commission of a crime.

Would you just sit back if you were in a gas station and it was being robbed? It's not your property, they have insurance against such things.

I can't believe that people on a gun forum would actually want to prosecute this man for MURDER!!! That's just insane.

[40FIVER]

Evidently the 911 operator knew plainclothes cops were enroute, but he didn't have the courtesy to tell the old man that. That bit of info should have been shared with the old man immediately.

Also, don't the cops usually notify the dispatcher when they are arriving at a scene? If the cops were there before the shooting started, the 911 operator should have known it and then relayed that info to the old man.

The 911 guy never mentioned that the cops were on scene until the shooting was over and only then did he mentioned plain clothes officers would be around.

Finally, this may be a totally different topic, but when did the value of human life become the all important thing? The value of the soul is all important, but the Bible is full of examples where God commanded that human life be taken, and for a lot less than murder. We've all been preconditioned to believe that the human life is all important. And the ones who trumpet this belief the loudest are the same ones who believe in the killing of the unborn child. The One to whom we will all give account to doesn't operate in the gray world we humans operate in.

I don't know that I would have pulled the trigger if I had been the old man. But I believe he had the moral right to do what he did.

[Lucky45]

Evidently the 911 operator knew plainclothes cops were enroute, but he didn't have the courtesy to tell the old man that. That bit of info should have been shared with the old man immediately.

WHY??????????

Also, don't the cops usually notify the dispatcher when they are arriving at a scene? If the cops were there before the shooting started, the 911 operator should have known it and then relayed that info to the old man.

I guess you are not aware of what goes on in a modern 911 call center. There isn't a jack of all trades dispatcher sitting there. There is the dispatcher, a supervisor monitoring all calls at the push of a button, and they have another dispatcher who is relaying info to squad cars. In an emergency situation, common sense alone says you can't conduct 2 conversations at the same time. The dispatcher taking the call is entering the info into the computer and the info is broadcasted by radio to all on police channel. Also it is transmitted wirelessly to the computers in the police cars. From the 911 call, did you hear that dispatcher talk to any police cars responding?? NOT ONCE. That was not his job. His job is to gain as much info for the Emergency Response personnel who are responding.
PS. Plus I think Houston has a huge 911 center with several surrounding cities all in the same room.

[40FIVER]

I guess you are not aware of what goes on in a modern 911 call center.

My my, this thread has certainly riled your dander. The fact that my post was in the form of a question would tell most people that I in fact don't know much about 911 operators. Once again, that's why it was in the form of a question.

[frankie_the_yankee]

We've all been preconditioned to believe that the human life is all important. And the ones who trumpet this belief the loudest are the same ones who believe in the killing of the unborn child.

A little more on point, those who trumpet the "infinite" value of human life also tend to be the ones who are content to "outsource" the protection of their own lives and those of their loved ones to the police.

Actions speak louder than words.

I might pay someone to cut my grass or paint my house, but my life is just a wee bit more important, and more highly-valued to me, than that.

I would submit that the segment of the population who really cares about human life is the one represented right here on this forum. We care enough about our own lives and those of our loved ones that we are willing to take responsibility for protecting those lives ourselves.

The anti self defense people just pay lip service to the concept of the value of human life. Where and when it really counts, they come up empty.