Scenario discussion

[austin]

The set piece gunfight is mostly the invention of Hollywood and square range training.

If you look at the videos of real gunfights, people are moving and running and shooting.

For example:

http://www.livevideo.com/video/APnews/A ... ate-i.aspx

From another forum.

http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=28497


"The Force-on-Force portion of the class was, as before, a very dramatic demonstration of what does NOT work in close combat. The class members who were seemingly welded into an embrace of MT shooting either made no effort to get off the X even after multiple exhortations, or they would take half-hearted sidesteps to one side or the other while drawing their pistols, and then root while they fired at their opponents. When you had two MT'ers doing the drills I noted we had an almost boringly repetitious redux of what Gabe calls the "Matt Dillon Drill": both would plant, draw, and shoot each other - often at the same time and never with more than a quarter second or so between shots. I saw a lot of fumbled draws as people who had NEVER practiced from under a concealing garment would suddenly find themselves wrestling with getting their gun out of the holster. To be fair, I fumbled my own draw a time or two after I realized that I'd been doing almost ALL of my practicing moving to one side and decided to start working on going the other way. I found it interesting that guys who seemed the most resistant to getting off the X were also the ones most likely to fumble their draws and thus be slowest at getting their guns deployed! "

Excellent comments. I would also add that you should be able to draw when knocked to the ground or when on the ground when on your stomach, back, or side as well as able to fire while in those positions or while crawling.

[yerasimos]

Whenever I see the homie-briefcase clip from Collateral, I always think that Vincent would have taken a bullet or two from the BG on the right (bald/shaved-head guy) if Baldy had the skills to get his gun out when his hand was on it (you see his hand buried in his jacket before the shooting starts, and you see a gun in Baldy's hand after he falls to the ground).

Only in Hollywood can a guy have his hand on his gun while his partner-in-crime holds a man at gunpoint, then let his partner take two bullets, then take two bullets himself, then fall down incapacitated with his arm extended, gun in hand, and never get a single shot off. (In fairness, sloppy editing may play a role with that last part.) I would expect in the real world that Baldy would have his gun out also, or be able to finish his draw and fire at least once before going down.

[txinvestigator]

Whenever I see the homie-briefcase clip from Collateral, I always think that Vincent would have taken a bullet or two from the BG on the right (bald/shaved-head guy) if Baldy had the skills to get his gun out when his hand was on it (you see his hand buried in his jacket before the shooting starts, and you see a gun in Baldy's hand after he falls to the ground).

Only in Hollywood can a guy have his hand on his gun while his partner-in-crime holds a man at gunpoint, then let his partner take two bullets, then take two bullets himself, then fall down incapacitated with his arm extended, gun in hand, and never get a single shot off. (In fairness, sloppy editing may play a role with that last part.) I would expect in the real world that Baldy would have his gun out also, or be able to finish his draw and fire at least once before going down.

I have seen people frozen with shock and surprise in MANY circumstances. That clip, although out of hollywood, is pretty accurate in the way humans behave. Bad Guy #1 was use to people complying because he had a gun. So was BG#2. When met with aggressive and effective force neither was prepared. They had to recognize the force, decide what to do, and execute. By then Vincent was thru. Notice how fast he fired the four shots.

BTW, they had a good technical director. Notice BG #1 was close and was shot with a "speed rock" and since #2 was moving back Vincent extended to a two handed hold.

[NcongruNt]

Whenever I see the homie-briefcase clip from Collateral, I always think that Vincent would have taken a bullet or two from the BG on the right (bald/shaved-head guy) if Baldy had the skills to get his gun out when his hand was on it (you see his hand buried in his jacket before the shooting starts, and you see a gun in Baldy's hand after he falls to the ground).

Only in Hollywood can a guy have his hand on his gun while his partner-in-crime holds a man at gunpoint, then let his partner take two bullets, then take two bullets himself, then fall down incapacitated with his arm extended, gun in hand, and never get a single shot off. (In fairness, sloppy editing may play a role with that last part.) I would expect in the real world that Baldy would have his gun out also, or be able to finish his draw and fire at least once before going down.

I have seen people frozen with shock and surprise in MANY circumstances. That clip, although out of hollywood, is pretty accurate in the way humans behave. Bad Guy #1 was use to people complying because he had a gun. So was BG#2. When met with aggressive and effective force neither was prepared. They had to recognize the force, decide what to do, and execute. By then Vincent was thru. Notice how fast he fired the four shots.

BTW, they had a good technical director. Notice BG #1 was close and was shot with a "speed rock" and since #2 was moving back Vincent extended to a two handed hold.

Right, that's what I noticed. The draw and quick shots off at the first guy, moving to a 2-hand hold with the second. I also noted the left palm strike also acted to create a barrier with his left arm to keep the first BG's right arm from moving to make a shot. It seems like a good tactic for such close quarters when drawn on without the ability to retreat or seek cover. I maybe would have moved rearwards during the first two shots, that way turning radius is reduced to address the second guy.

This is very close to the training done in the "Draw, Move, and Shoot" clinic at Forum Day. Strike to the head, shots from immediately after draw, moving to two hands while firing several shots and moving back or at an angle.

[yerasimos]

Whenever I see the homie-briefcase clip from Collateral, I always think that Vincent would have taken a bullet or two from the BG on the right (bald/shaved-head guy) if Baldy had the skills to get his gun out when his hand was on it (you see his hand buried in his jacket before the shooting starts, and you see a gun in Baldy's hand after he falls to the ground).

Only in Hollywood can a guy have his hand on his gun while his partner-in-crime holds a man at gunpoint, then let his partner take two bullets, then take two bullets himself, then fall down incapacitated with his arm extended, gun in hand, and never get a single shot off. (In fairness, sloppy editing may play a role with that last part.) I would expect in the real world that Baldy would have his gun out also, or be able to finish his draw and fire at least once before going down.

I have seen people frozen with shock and surprise in MANY circumstances. That clip, although out of hollywood, is pretty accurate in the way humans behave. Bad Guy #1 was use to people complying because he had a gun. So was BG#2. When met with aggressive and effective force neither was prepared. They had to recognize the force, decide what to do, and execute. By then Vincent was thru. Notice how fast he fired the four shots.

BTW, they had a good technical director. Notice BG #1 was close and was shot with a "speed rock" and since #2 was moving back Vincent extended to a two handed hold.

To me, BG #2/Baldy does not appear to have been frozen in surprise or fear; it looked as though his gun was somehow stuck and he was desperately trying to get his gun out as Vincent double-tapped BG #1, then mozambiqued BG #2 (though I am not sure if BG#2's third serving went to head or not). This could be a result of the director simply telling the actor playing BG #2 to act that way. If BG #2 decided to keep his gun concealed (but with his hand on the stocks), there could be a "shock and awe", surprise and indecision effect going on, such as what you described.

If BG #1 and #2 had been standing a little closer together, what would be the odds of success of a more purely combatives opener by Vincent? I am thinking of beginning with a redirection of BG#1's gun hand just like in the clip, but then using a palm strike/chin jab, or upper body push to explosively drive BG#1 backwards/left into BG#2. BG#1 and BG#2 seem to be too close together in the clip as-is for this to work. Some folks may not be able to draw as quickly as Vincent, or be wearing such a draw-friendly cover garment. Assume a similar weight and height disparity similar to that in the clip (Tom Cruise is said to be relatively short, so I am assuming BG #1 and #2 are a little taller/heavier).

[Photoman]

I can't believe we're actually analyzing a Hollywood movie...

[txinvestigator]

I can't believe we're actually analyzing a Hollywood movie...

Just ONE clip.

Cruise actually trained with Mick Gould, a former Special Forces guy who has worked training actors for over 10 years. He trained DeNiro for Heat, and Cruise in CQB and martial arts for this film.

I have heard that Cruise spent about a week on the range with Gould.

[Stupid]

To the OP, one time I was in a similar situation. When I drove to a bank parking lot trying to get some cash right after sunset/half dark time, i immediately noticed there were 2 seedy cars parked in front of the ATM and one guy was standing outside. (racial stereotyping if you will)

I said :"I am out of here" to my wife and immediately U turned and drove away.

We actually had 2 guns on us and hundreds of additional ammo in my car, but I had no intention to start WWIII or anything.

My stupid advice. Walk away, run if they are close.

[Venus Pax]

To the OP, one time I was in a similar situation. When I drove to a bank parking lot trying to get some cash right after sunset/half dark time, i immediately noticed there were 2 seedy cars parked in front of the ATM and one guy was standing outside. (racial stereotyping if you will)

I said :"I am out of here" to my wife and immediately U turned and drove away.

We actually had 2 guns on us and hundreds of additional ammo in my car, but I had no intention to start WWIII or anything.

My stupid advice. Walk away, run if they are close.

You not only saved yourself the hassel, but you saved money by not having to pay legal fees.
Wise individuals on this forum have always said that the best fight is the one you avoid.

[doghouse]

Not trying to hijack the OP thread but i have another scenario i think about. And i know each one is different but i wonder about this at times. What if your in a situation where you notice the BG coming at you weapon or no weapon drawn but you feel in danger and draw your weapon he turns and runs off....did i do something wrong by drawing a gun on an unarmed person? Or in any situation that you have to draw your gun you shoot no matter? Yes I am a newbie and still learning.

And please clear this up for me but why is it illegal for a CHL to carry on school premisses? If we are cleared and supposedly the good guy why not be aloud to carry on school property? I go back to the VT incedent and if a CHL happened to be carrying couldn't that have stopped some of the deaths?

I've seen that movie collateral and up until now i never thought of the tactics used in that scenario. Since being on this forum WOW it's a whole new world for me now.

[txinvestigator]

Not trying to hijack the OP thread but i have another scenario i think about. And i know each one is different but i wonder about this at times. What if your in a situation where you notice the BG coming at you weapon or no weapon drawn but you feel in danger and draw your weapon he turns and runs off....did i do something wrong by drawing a gun on an unarmed person? Or in any situation that you have to draw your gun you shoot no matter? Yes I am a newbie and still learning.

There is way too little information to answer that. What is a BG? What does one look like? What made you "feel in danger" whatever that means? You can't just draw down on an unarmed person walking towards you.

And please clear this up for me but why is it illegal for a CHL to carry on school premisses? If we are cleared and supposedly the good guy why not be aloud to carry on school property? I go back to the VT incedent and if a CHL happened to be carrying couldn't that have stopped some of the deaths?

A CHL is perfectly legal carry on school premises. He cannot carry inside buildings. Why? I imagine our legislators were afraid that if they didn't do that the left libtards would have killed the entire CHL bill.

[frankie_the_yankee]

One thing that hasn't been addressed in this thread is how one's mode of carry affects his options.

If you're carrying in an ankle holster, a bellyband, of thunderwear, it would seem to me that time required to draw would make for poor chances when facing a drawn gun.

Some type of untucked shirt over either an IWB or OWB holster would be much better, IMO.

And my personal favorite is a good leather vest over an IWB holster. The vest is easy to sweep back with the strong hand, easier than getting under an untucked shirt, and less likely to snag on the gun.

Another thing I have noticed is the pros and cons of 1911 style guns. One of my fave carry pieces is a stainless steel Commander in 45ACP. The gun has night sights and I find I can shoot it accurately. In any scenario where I had to make a precision shot and/or if the range was greater than 10 or 15 yards, it would be the gun I would want to have.

But for me, it's a two hand job to draw, take it off safe, and fire. I can do it with one hand, but it's slow. I'm sure I could improve with a lot of dry fire practice, but by how much I don't know.

Another gun I have is a SP101 with a 3" barrel. I can shoot it fairly well double action, but not as well as the Commander.

But the big advantage is that there is no safety to mess with. Drawing and firing can easily be accomplished with one hand, leaving my weak hand free for anything I might need it for like pushing the BG's gun off line, distracting him, etc.

So I think in most situations I am better off with the 5 shot snubbie revolver than with my 1911 style 45.

I haven't timed it, but I have no doubt that I can get off a shot with the Ruger much faster than I can with my Colt. And that small difference in time could end up being, literally, "a lifetime".

[doghouse]

Not trying to hijack the OP thread but i have another scenario i think about. And i know each one is different but i wonder about this at times. What if your in a situation where you notice the BG coming at you weapon or no weapon drawn but you feel in danger and draw your weapon he turns and runs off....did i do something wrong by drawing a gun on an unarmed person? Or in any situation that you have to draw your gun you shoot no matter? Yes I am a newbie and still learning.

There is way too little information to answer that. What is a BG? What does one look like? What made you "feel in danger" whatever that means? You can't just draw down on an unarmed person walking towards you.

And please clear this up for me but why is it illegal for a CHL to carry on school premisses? If we are cleared and supposedly the good guy why not be aloud to carry on school property? I go back to the VT incedent and if a CHL happened to be carrying couldn't that have stopped some of the deaths?

A CHL is perfectly legal carry on school premises. He cannot carry inside buildings. Why? I imagine our legislators were afraid that if they didn't do that the left libtards would have killed the entire CHL bill.

I think i answered my question by more thought and reading on other posts.

[spider373]

...
I said :"I am out of here" to my wife and immediately U turned and drove away.
...

Well, yes, in your particular case, I'd agree with you. After all, there are always other places to do banking.

But in our case, are you SO ready to give up your daily routine, just because you see somebody suspious ? (before "proving guilty" ?). Worse, change your lifestyle because some "bogus" threat ? Or let's just ask ourselves, are we ready to avoid taking air flights because there are terrorists eager to hijack our airliners ?

In the IHOP case, if it were you, are you so ready to simply go back to the restaurant wasting more time or waiting for a cop to clear it for you because you see two "suspious" guys in the parking lot, imagining that you just have to go home, because your wife calls you a few minutes prior and your child has an emergency. After all, you are with one of your buddies. You are not really alone, right ?

We need to, have to, go home and we need to go about our daily routines. The reality is cop may not be available to you at a given moment. What do we do ? (In the IHOP case, I heard that there was a cop eating at the moment. That was why police could mount a high-speed chase pretty quick)

I'd like to learn some SD tactics and research possible SD maneuvers in similar situations. Avoidance is not the point HERE. Trust me, I do not use roadside ATMs if I have any options.

I like the Colateral maneuver, because that was indeed inspiring that I have decided to take some advance SD tactic training in the near future. I may not become an SD professional, heck, I figure I may look prepared enough to thwart SOME potential threats. So, it should be done.

But I am not sure how many people are as determined and purposeful as Vincent in Colateral. I do not think a regular joe with minimum training can readily pull that move off. In that case, he may just escalete the situation.

Think about it. Most regular people do hesitate, especially facing uncertain scenarios. Hestitation made us walking up to two "suspious" guys, in my OP, hesitation may easily doom one's defensive move in a tough situation too.

I wonder if there are other maneuvers we can add to our options list. That's why I like Austin's basic move. It makes sense to me. One can succeed if he/she can distract the BGs attentions a little, and have a handy holster. This move does not need the hand-to-hand combat in Colaterial act, which needs fluent, dominant performance, besides utmost determination.

Please remember, like a lot of us here on this board, I am in my 40s and have a desk-bound job. I do not expect to become very proficient in martial art SD techniques. I agree a little is better than none, though. BTW, I know my daughter will be better in self defense, she is already a black-belt in Taikwondo at age 11

So, options, options and options.

Great discussions!

Thanks

[Stupid]

Actually, I read your case before I posted. In the IHOP case, if I were to encounter two guys at 3:00AM, I would walk right back to the restaurant.

Since i got my CHL and my carry gun, I always carry, but carrying does not make me stronger or anything. I grow more aware on situations. Like, when I sit down in a restaurant, I always make sure i can see the door directly and away from the cashier and I always make a mental note on the second exit.

this one time, we were in IHOP. Two guys, racial/clothing profiling again, came in. I was actually fully expecting the two would announce this was a stick-up. I already mentally prepared to running for the door should that happen. Luckily/supprisingly/fortunately, they did not and they sat down at a table besides us and started to eat.

I voiced my concern to my wife. She asked if I brought my gun, and i said of course, but we should leave. (we can speak in different language other than english/spanish) and we finished our dishes and left quickly.

Well, yes, in your particular case, I'd agree with you. After all, there are always other places to do banking.

But in our case, are you SO ready to give up your daily routine, just because you see somebody suspious ? (before "proving guilty" ?). Worse, change your lifestyle because some "bogus" threat ?