Paul Harrell video regarding "hyper ammo"

[Charles L. Cotton]

Paul recently released a video discussing his dislike of what he calls "hyper ammo." It's an excellent discussion overall and well worth 30 minutes of your time. I disagree with part of his concern about the impact on law enforcement and prosecutors. I absolutely agree with his concern about RIP and Zombie Max ammo. Other than that, I'm in agreement even though I carry Gold Dots in my .45ACP, 38 Super and 9mm. I have tested it extensively for function and poa - poi.

Chas.

[Scott B.]

Interesting. Don't agree 100% but a lot of really good points. I'm going to keep on carrying my Speer gold dot, or
federal HST, or whatever.

Just cycled out my carry ammo Wed night the range. I'm on about a six month rotation.

[cmgee67]

I agree with most of his points. For the most part his videos are very informative and he actually shows real testing of ammunition and not that ballistic gel blue jean junk. I prefer federal hydra shok or Hornady American gunner XTP. Will I waist them on a water bottle? No. I do however cycle them about every 6 months and at that time if there is a water bottle down range sure I use them then. This is a very good video and has some good humor as well.

[crazy2medic]

When I initially got my chl back in the 90s, I did alot of reading and research, I found a repot of police and citizens justifiable shoots documenting bullet performance of different bullet weights and calibers in real life shootings, I can't remember alot of it but I do remember that the 230gr Hydrashoks were credited with expanding from .45 to 60-78 caliber going through the human torso, I have carried the Hydrashoks ever since!

[The Annoyed Man]

I just want to know where I can get some of those Hertenburger Buscadero Ticondas.

[mrvmax]

I just want to know where I can get some of those Hertenburger Buscadero Ticondas.

What good would they do? You’d never shoot them since they’re so “precious”....

[The Annoyed Man]

I will say this, he may have a point about how police and prosecutors might be guided and informed by their own prejudices and agendas when it comes to investigating your choice of ammo in a self-defense shooting. As many on this forum have said before, the simple solution is to ask your local PD what ammo they are authorized to carry, and carry that yourself. If they’re carrying some kind of “hyper ammo”, you may safely carry the same, as it neutralizes any concern that a prosecutor would have.

I also think that Harrell is a little too quick to dismiss some premium ammo as “hyper ammo”. I do agree with his view that cartridges like the RIP and others in that vein market themselves as if the user were going African big game hunting, instead of simply carrying for self protection. I’ve avoided them like the plague, for that reason. It really doesn’t matter if they are any more or less effective than any other cartridge....it’s the perception they seek to maintain. For the same reason, I’ve refused to buy and carry the Zombie Max ammo - even though all it really is is a Critical Defense round with a green polymer insert instead of a red one. I don’t ever want to give law enforcement any leverage against my personal defense choices. So I stick with cartridges like Critical Duty, or HST, because that’s what the police carry.

Similarly, I don’t carry around my pistol suppressor for self defense when I’m out and about. It is too bulky to carry already attached, and it tells a cop or prosecutor that I had time to mount the suppressor before shooting my gun.....which also lends an air of premeditation, and says that I had time to evade the situation and chose not to. But, I will use the can at home, because I leave it attached to one pistol, and it’s easily explained if I need to fire my gun inside my house.

Exactly NONE of this should be relevant to any investigation of a self-defense shooting, but unfortunately our choices to not occur in a vacuum. It blames the victim, not the perpetrator. It’s like saying “she shouldn’t have worn that miniskirt if she didn’t want to get raped”. It’s a wedge issue to try to delegitimize one’s self defense.

The flip side of that is, I haven’t yet heard of ammunition choice becoming a factor in any Texas self defense investigation. But the more “blue” our major cities become, the more likely that this could happen.

[The Annoyed Man]

I just want to know where I can get some of those Hertenburger Buscadero Ticondas.

What good would they do? You’d never shoot them since they’re so “precious”....

[K.Mooneyham]

I guess I'm like most on here, I can agree somewhat, and disagree with other points he made. I will say I've been guilty of the "precious ammo" factor in the past, and I'm working to not think of ammo that way anymore.

Besides that item, I do have a question on another of his points: do most police really get their profiling training based on ONE GUY'S work in their field? Now, I'm not knocking that one guy, but in any field, there are going to be several people who have good knowledge on a subject. To limit things to one person's view of it seems to set things up for failure when something occurs outside that one person's paradigms.

Additionally, one of the best old-school rounds for .38 caliber revolvers is the so-called FBI Load, 158 grain LSWCHP +P. If a person carries a .38 revolver, it's a great choice of ammo to carry because IT WORKS. Should a person stop carrying it because the ADA might tell a jury the person is a nut for carrying "cop ammo"? That seems a bit far-fetched.

[The Annoyed Man]

Also, I don’t know if what follows had anything to do with Harrell posting the above video or not, but I find a curious coincidence here. In March of 2017, Harrell posted a video titled “Police Pistols: 9mm vs .40 S&W”. At 17:17 into the video, he compares the 135 grain 9mm Critical Duty load to the 175 grain .40 S&W Critical Duty load, using his famous “meat target”. The 9mm 135 grain Critical Duty performed much better than the Federal Blue Box 115 grain JHP he tested earlier in the video in the meat target, but predictably, it did not perform as well as the heavier .40 S&W Critical Duty cartridge.

Three weeks ago, I came late to that video, and posted a question:

Hi Paul, I know it’s been a while since you posted this. I am curious to know if the the 135 grain Critical Duty you tested in the Glock 17 was the +P or standard pressure load. Hornady offers both in a 135 grain bullet weight for the Critical Duty line. I have both +P and Standard Critical Duty in various 9mm Glocks I own. I’d like to know if the +P compares successfully to the .40 S&W Critical Duty.

Also, I know that you like to test with the cheaper, and often more available brands/loads - and that is a legitimate approach - but a lot of us choose for whatever reason to go with premium cartridges, like the Critical Defense/Critical Duty, or the Federal HST, etc. I know that one of the benefits of your approach to YouTube video is that you try and operate on a budget similar to the average shooter, who has to spend wisely, and so you try to clear the air of all the hype. I like that. But for my own part, I’m willing to spend more for my carry ammo, since I don’t shoot that much of it, in the hope that if I should ever HAVE to use it, it will be more effective. Maybe that’s a vain hope.....I don’t know. But it does give me greater confidence, and confidence is an important factor.

So I am curious to know if you have ever tested: (1) +P premium 9mm ammo against premium .40 S&W using the same brand/line [i.e. Critical Duty vs Critical Duty, or HST vs HST]; and (2) within a given caliber, say 9mm, have you ever tested one brand against the other for similar offerings - for instance +P 9mm Critical Duty against +P 9mm Federal HST?

Thanks for producing all these great videos, and keep up the good work.

He has answered other questions of mine in the past, but didn’t answer this one - perhaps simply because the video was more than a year old when I posed the question. But, 3 weeks after I posed the question, Harrell posts a new video stating why he doesn’t like hyper ammo, and he includes in that definition, piled on the side of the table with all the other “hyper ammo”, the Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo. So, my question is answered - intentionally or not - by his lumping of what I would call “premium” ammo in with what I agree is “hyper” ammo such as the RIP and novelty loads like the Zombie Max.

And that’s where I have to disagree with Harrell. It may be an almost insignificant difference at the kind of ranges that self-defense shootings take place, but there usually IS a measurable difference - at least in my experience - between what I would call “affordable” ammo, and “premium” ammo. (I don’t waste my time with novelty and hyper ammo.) At least, this has proven true in my choices of rifle ammo. For example, I have consistently shot tighter groups with Federal Gold 168 grain .308 BTHP Match, than I have with Prvi Partisan 168 grain BTHP Match. Federal’s quality control is simply better, and they are using Sierra SMKs, which is a better bullet than whatever Prvi uses. The Prvi may be more affordable, but the Federal is just plain better ammo. So, there is such a thing as premium ammo netting better results than the cheap stuff. Whether or not that translates into self-defense accuracy with a handgun may be irrelevant....in fact, it probably is. But, as I mentioned in my question to Harrell, confidence is an important factor. Of course, confidence can be misplaced if you don’t actually shoot and train regularly, including with your carry load.

His video did remind of me one thing.... I’ve got several boxes laying around of what I call “legacy” ammo.......ammunition that I used to carry, but no longer do for whatever reason, and I might as well shoot it up. I also still have a partial box of 230 grain .45 ACP Black Talons (AKA “Buscadero Ticondas” ) that I bought way back in the day when those were still being sold in their hay day. I’ll hang onto those simply for their archival value.

Anyway, I do like Harrell’s approach to testing/comparing firearms and ammunition, and I have found much of his information to be useful and pragmatic, without all the tactical hype; and that is refreshing.

[flechero]

I also still have a partial box of 230 grain .45 ACP Black Talons (AKA “Buscadero Ticondas” ) that I bought way back in the day when those were still being sold in their hay day. I’ll hang onto those simply for their archival value.

TAM,

There is an active thread on the 1911 forum where a guy has a partial box of Black Talons as well.. someone told him if it was complete it was worth $$$- maybe you should share them and split the box sale price!

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=971248

[LTUME1978]

Thanks to a post by Charles earlier this year, I ended up watching all of Paul's videos. I would encourage those that question what Paul has to say to watch his videos. I was skeptical at first but am no longer so as I learned that his credentials are impressive and his tests more real world than a gelatin block. Like Charles, I carry Gold Dot in my 45 and 9mm but, based on Paul's tests, will switch to Federal HST for 380. Gold Dot in 380 does not perform well in Paul's tests. In Paul's test, Ranger did not do well in some calibers.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Paul has tested a very large percentage of so-called "hyper ammo." His opinions are conclusions based upon real world testing, not the reputation of the ammo manufacturer, or advertising hype. I doubt seriously anyone has tested their magic ammo using his meat target, or anything remotely close to it. So upon what do we rely? Reputation, advertising, one or two anecdotal reports, and pure faith are about all there is to go on, if you don't accept real world testing. That's not anything I'll bet my life on, especially if I don't test extensively and 10 to 100 rounds isn't testing in my book. The reason I carry Gold Dots in all of my self-defense handguns is because it is all my HPD SWAT buddy carries and what HPD provided to officers. That agency has a lot of experience with that round and it performs well. It's also far more expensive than cheaper JHP ammo. What we do not have is the same level of HPD experience with Remington Green box JHPs that could have results equal or close to Gold Dots.

Winchester white box did perform better than some of the hyper ammo Paul has tested against the meat target. It wasn't better than all, but I don't recall a single premium brand that was significantly more effective than lower cost ammo, other than in .380ACP.

He is absolutely right about people not performing realistic reliability and accuracy testing or practice with expensive hyper ammo. When I tell my students to shoot at least 100 rds each week, I often hear that $XX/box is too expensive! They are talking about Winchester white box, UMC, Remington green box, etc., practice ammo, not premium ammo at over $1/rd. As Paul notes in the above-linked video, when he refers to accuracy with hyper ammo, he's talking about POA v. POI, not potential group size. I know this is a problem because I've seen it with some of my practice ammo v. hyper ammo. I've also seen it with students' guns and ammo.

Paul has posted many videos testing a lot of different ammo and guns. I don't know of anyone who even comes close to his testing under conditions as close to real world as possible. His goal isn't to kill anyone's sacred cow. It is to provide empirical evidence for us to rely upon or reject. Perhaps it's the lawyer in me, but I find his evidence convincing.

All of his testing is done with pistol ammo, so his results cannot be imputed to rifle ammo. That's a totally different animal.

Chas.

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Watched the whole video. OMG this guy's delivery is hilarious. I mostly agree with his points. Not sure I agree enough to sell my P71 Crown Vic or to deter me from buying another (newer) one at some point. But I already understand from Mas Ayoob's books from several decades ago that 'they' can pretty much use anything as part of an attempt against you in a negative way, in the investigation or in court. It's something that you can't truly control or even predict.
Both in competition and carry situations, I agree with doing enough pretesting of any ammo changes that you are sure of reliability of function, and aware of POA/POI deviations.
I have bought a few (small) boxes of 'precious' ammo in my life but NEVER carried it because I'm a cheapskate and fully understood that there was no way I would buy and shoot enough of it to be copacetic about it as carry ammo.
Worth the 40 minutes spent watching it. I enjoyed the 'intermission' too.