Would you "open carry"?

[tomneal]

If it were legal in Texas. I would carry open or concealed as I saw fit.

I wouldn't normally open carry in church or in the grocery store.
But, if the option were available and the was an 'issue', I would carry as I saw fit at the time.

I am very interested in the option,
I am not sure that I would exercise the option much here in Houston.


Your millage may vary
Tom

[Liberty]

Friend, aren't we just going to end up right back here:

(only with a different audience)?

Of course.

But when you or others tell me that snatching is not a problem in urban areas because we never hear of it, I must point out that the argument is a red herring. The reason we never hear of it is because almost no one carrys openly in urban areas. I've travelled pretty extensively and I've only seen two people (not counting myself) carrying openly who were not LEO. One was in a shopping mall in Phoenix around 8 or 9 years ago. The other was in Brattleboro, VT around 30 years ago. (Note that Brattleboro is not exactly an urban area.)

So I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how many non-LEO's they have seen openly carrying in urban environments, or to admit that practically no one does it.

The issue is germain to the overall wisdom of carrying in that (urban) environment, and yet I never get an answer.

To me, it is evident that in some fairly common circumstances a snatch would be easy to execute. Common sense tells us that if something is easy, someone will try it because they will have a high expectation of success. Urban areas are places where people gather. So there is a greater probability of a BG being nearby in an urban area than in a rural area.

It's pretty simple really.

You must go to different places in Arizona than I do. I've literally seen them check the handguns at the bar. I see open carry in Tuscon, Phoenix, and Scottsdale. and thats not even counting seeing myself in the mirror. While I would agree that not everyone is carrying, not even most people are carrying. But they really do carry in the open in Arizona. while I haven't spent a lot of time in New Mexico, It seems every time I stop for gas and eat in Los Cruzes to eat and gass up I see some good ole boy with a sidarm on his hip. I've noticed a couple on the dash while driving I-10 also. Its a wierd New Mexican habit.

[frankie_the_yankee]

As much as I am loath to do someone else's work for them, I will go to OpenCarry.org and put forth a poll. I will simply ask of those who open carry, how many have had their guns snatched (or been involved in an attempted snatching).

Will you accept my findings, or are you going to dismiss the information I provide as so much Internet Folly?

It depends. If your poll gets thousands of responses from non-LEO's who regularly carry in urban areas, I would have to give the data some weight. But if you just get a few dozen responses out of around 50 million+ adults living in open carry states, that tells me that practically no one is doing it.

Remember, the total homicide rate in the USA is something like 5 or 6 per 100K population in a given year. The aggravated assault rate might be 10 times higher. But either way, you would still need a pretty big sample to see anything.

And people who are doing their carrying in Dustwater, ID or Buffalo Butt, MT don't count.

It's true I haven't been everywhere. But I haven't seen any significant open carrying ANYWHERE in urban areas, or anywhere else for that matter, in a period spanning 30+ years.

Have you? Has anyone? If so, where and when and how much?

Which city in America can I go to and see non-LEO people carrying guns openly all over the place?

[Thane]

If it were legal, would I open carry in Texas?

YES. Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, in a plain El Paso Saddlery "Tom Threepersons Crossdraw" holster for for left-handers (gun just to the right of my belt buckle). As is proper for a single-action holster, it has the traditional hammer-thong.

It's my hunting carry, and putting it there keeps it out of the way, retained, yet ready in an instant should I need it. It would also make a supurb "toolin' around town" rig, as it's neither the gun nor holster are fancy; they're simply tough, rugged workhorses.

Granted, there are certain situations where such carry wouldn't be all that practical; for those, there's still the 1911 in an IWB rig.

[frankie_the_yankee]

You must go to different places in Arizona than I do. I've literally seen them check the handguns at the bar.

I must. I've never seen anything like that.

I see open carry in Tuscon, Phoenix, and Scottsdale. and thats not even counting seeing myself in the mirror.

Good. You're the first one who has actually answered my question with an eye witness account. Thank you.

While I would agree that not everyone is carrying, not even most people are carrying. But they really do carry in the open in Arizona.

Can you give an estimate of how many people you have seen? A few? A few dozen? More than that?

while I haven't spent a lot of time in New Mexico, It seems every time I stop for gas and eat in Los Cruzes to eat and gass up I see some good ole boy with a sidarm on his hip. I've noticed a couple on the dash while driving I-10 also. Its a wierd New Mexican habit.

On my only trip to NM I went through Clovis. Didn't see any open carry during my rest/eat/fuel stop there.

[flintknapper]

As much as I am loath to do someone else's work for them, I will go to OpenCarry.org and put forth a poll. I will simply ask of those who open carry, how many have had their guns snatched (or been involved in an attempted snatching).

Will you accept my findings, or are you going to dismiss the information I provide as so much Internet Folly?

It depends. If your poll gets thousands of responses from non-LEO's who regularly carry in urban areas, I would have to give the data some weight. But if you just get a few dozen responses out of around 50 million+ adults living in open carry states, that tells me that practically no one is doing it.

Remember, the total homicide rate in the USA is something like 5 or 6 per 100K population in a given year. The aggravated assault rate might be 10 times higher. But either way, you would still need a pretty big sample to see anything.

And people who are doing their carrying in Dustwater, ID or Buffalo Butt, MT don't count.

It's true I haven't been everywhere. But I haven't seen any significant open carrying ANYWHERE in urban areas, or anywhere else for that matter, in a period spanning 30+ years.

Have you? Has anyone? If so, where and when and how much?

Which city in America can I go to and see non-LEO people carrying guns openly all over the place?

Well, isn't that convenient! You will require thousands of responses from my poll to make it an acceptable sample, but you offer a sample of ONE (yourself) in rebuttal. Unbelievable.

Here is the Poll currently in place: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic ... forum_id=7

Just so you can follow it "above the board". Tell ya what, lets just watch it....and let the chips fall where they may, fair enough?

If it does nothing else, it should give us some direction on how many people from a small sampling are carrying in urban areas vs. your (2) observed over 30 years.

Maybe we will all glean something from this.

Thanks, Flint.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Here is the Poll currently in place: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic ... forum_id=7

Just you can follow it "above the board". Tell ya what, lets just watch it....and let the chips fall where they may, fair enough?

Urban area = a place with a population > 10,000?

10,000 is a town in the middle of a rural area.

I'm talking about urban centers like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, etc. I'd say > 100,000 would be more like it.

And I'm glad to see that the first person who responded stated that he "hates" me because I'm "stupid".

Sounds like a reasonable guy, hey? I'll bet it's possible to have all sorts of abstract discussions with an open-minded guy like that.

I wonder if he has ever open carried in the middle of the ghetto in a big city in an open topped holster surrounded by 4 gangsta type people who were twice as big as he was and a lot younger. Then let's talk about who is "stupid".

[boomerang]

I wonder if he has ever open carried in the middle of the ghetto in a big city in an open topped holster surrounded by 4 gangsta type people who were twice as big as he was and a lot younger. Then let's talk about who is "stupid".

I don't want to be in that environment no matter what or how I'm carrying.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I wonder if he has ever open carried in the middle of the ghetto in a big city in an open topped holster surrounded by 4 gangsta type people who were twice as big as he was and a lot younger. Then let's talk about who is "stupid".

I don't want to be in that environment no matter what or how I'm carrying.

Me neither. But sometimes you are where you are.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Out of 4 responses to the poll, 1 opines that I am "stupid" and another characterizes me as an "idiot". Very convincing.

And these people carry guns in public?

[flintknapper]

Here is the Poll currently in place: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic ... forum_id=7

Just you can follow it "above the board". Tell ya what, lets just watch it....and let the chips fall where they may, fair enough?

Urban area = a place with a population > 10,000?

10,000 is a town in the middle of a rural area.

I'm talking about urban centers like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, etc. I'd say > 100,000 would be more like it.
And I'm glad to see that the first person who responded stated that he "hates" me because I'm "stupid".

Sounds like a reasonable guy, hey? I'll bet it's possible to have all sorts of abstract discussions with an open-minded guy like that.

I wonder if he has ever open carried in the middle of the ghetto in a big city in an open topped holster surrounded by 4 gangsta type people who were twice as big as he was and a lot younger. Then let's talk about who is "stupid".

Frankie,

"Urban" is a subjective term, smaller cities these days are not exempt from BG's and even elements of Gang activity. If I allow you to "restrict" the sampling to your own likings, then the results will be quite predictable.


ur•ban (ûr b n)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or located in a city.
2. Characteristic of the city or city life.



URBAN AND RURAL DEFINITIONS

Source: US Census Bureau
Released: Oct. 1995

URBAN AND RURAL

The Census Bureau defines "urban" for the 1990 census as
comprising all territory, population, and housing units in
urbanized areas and in places of 2,500 or more persons outside
urbanized areas.


me·trop·o·lis (m-trp-ls)
n.
1. A major city, especially the chief city of a country or region: Chicago, the metropolis of the Midwest.
2. A city or an urban area regarded as the center of a specific activity: a great cultural metropolis.



Lets sit back and watch, we'll banter it back and forth later.

I apologize for the insulting remark "stupid" that someone made about you.

I made it clear in my post that comments should be sans any expletives, and kept "clean". Of course, I have no control over what goes on over there, I made every attempt to fairly represent our debate.

[flintknapper]

Saw this over at OpenCarry.

It is a point that may have some merit:

You can’t prove OC is anymore safe than they can prove it is not. So the argument seems silly to me.

I believe it (OC) provides a deterrent based upon minor 'proof' that criminals prefer a "path of least resistance". But beyond that, I have nothing but case studies that support my stance. I don’t have much in the way of scientifically concluded facts to prove my point. But CC guys don’t have anything more to provide for CC or against OC.

So, until such a study is done (which you, I think, rightfully have pointed out would be nigh impossible to do and probably inconclusive... or I think horribly slanted against us) no one can honestly state it as fact

Actually, there has been a study done. The US Department of Justice funded "Wright-Rossi Felon Study (Under the Gun: Weapons, Crime, and Violence in America (Aldine, 1983))"

According to that study:

40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun."

56% of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;"
The only way the felon will KNOW beforehand that a victim is armed is by that person Open Carrying. Thus it is at least 16% safer to OC than CC. That's proof enough for me.

Edited to add...

And my life and safety is well worth that extra 16%.

[KBCraig]

A few pages back, Frankie asked where I'd seen open carry, and offered up that in his visits to OC states, he hadn't seen it.

Fair enough. He mentioned New Hampshire specificially, which is the only OC state I've actually stopped in for anything longer than gas and food, and in the week I spent there in 2006, I saw at least two or three dozen people open carrying. Granted, this was in Lancaster, not Nashua, and some of them were hiking. Others were shopping, or just hanging around the campground.

I openly carried as well while I was there, and when I did wear a cover shirt, I didn't care which way the wind blew. When I went to Shaw's for groceries one windy day, the bowling shirt I was wearing blew back exposing my pistol, and I didn't worry about it at all, especially since I was wrangling a shopping cart and a 3 year old who insisted he was big enough to walk. Got a couple of big smiles and nods in the parking lot, but maybe that was because the ladies were impressed by my rugged good looks, charming 3 year old, and huge honkin' Razorback Red conversion van with a stuffed Razorback on the dash.

But they did notice the pistol.

Over the years I've seen one or two open carriers in Tennessee and Kentucky. I never stopped for more than gas in Virginia, but the good folks at VCDL regularly carry openly in Richmond, Fairfax, Hampton Roads, Virginia Beach.... do those count as "urban" to you?

To see how many and how often, read here:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/

None have had their guns snatched. And yes, they do face an ongoing battle of educating the police who think they know better.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Fair enough. He mentioned New Hampshire specificially, which is the only OC state I've actually stopped in for anything longer than gas and food, and in the week I spent there in 2006, I saw at least two or three dozen people open carrying. Granted, this was in Lancaster, not Nashua, and some of them were hiking. Others were shopping, or just hanging around the campground.

Lancaster is a small town with a population of around 4000. I wouldn't characterize it as an urban center.

I lived in New England for 50 years and visited NH dozens of times. I've never seen a living soul carrying openly. But I believe your report anyway. I can see that in the smaller towns there might be people OC'ing.

I have seen a video of a person in either Nashua or Manchester (don't remember which) being harrassed by the police because he was openly carrying. My guess is that it is not too common in the larger cities. Otherwise, the police would be more familiar with the law.

[shootthesheet]

Yes.