Would you "open carry"?

[LedJedi]

OC for political reasons.

backup concealed for security.

[Renegade]

I would open carry or concealed carry as I see fit. Just another option. No evidence based on other states that allow open carry that it makes you a "target".

[sparx]

Like so many others before me have stated, it would really depend on place and time. There would be times I would, and times I wouldn't.

For example, if the area I was visiting would be considered (by me at least) a place where I might find myself a target, then no, of course I wouldn't (I would much prefer it be a surprise to the BG if I found myself a target).

However, in the more peaceful areas where I would not consider myself a target (and yes, I know that can change in a heartbeat, no matter where one would find themself), I would like the option to open-carry if for no other reason than to show my support for the 2nd Amendment and show others that "good people carry guns, too."

[BShook]

I'd carry concealed most of the time, I think... but there's definitely a time and a place for open carry!

[kw5kw]

I would rather them do away with 30.06 signs with the exception of a jail/courthouse.

I'd just as soon the 30.06 signs were done away with entirely.

Why is it again that licensed, back ground checked, trained, qualified, law abiding individuals shouldn't be allowed to carry in a courtroom or a jail again? Provided guns are carried by personell there as well. If it's truly a "clean" environment then I'd agree.

It strikes me that if guns are allowed in a place, at all, CHL holders should be allowed to have them too.

But hey, I'm a purist.

Oh NO!... the 30.06 is what makes our state so, so much more gun friendly than the states who's legal sinage is the simple no guns/ghosbuster signs that we simply ignore.

I Thank Charles and the Texas Legislature for 30.06!

Russ

[Renegade]

I would rather them do away with 30.06 signs with the exception of a jail/courthouse.

I'd just as soon the 30.06 signs were done away with entirely.

Been there, done that, didn't work. 30.06 was pretty much invented by CHL'ers to avoid all the confusing signs and what legal status they had.

[frankie_the_yankee]

So, I'll ask .... Does anyone have any real data linking open carry to dead or shot open carriers or is it just more "blood in the streets" arguments from the very side of the aisle that claims to hate them?

The problem is that there are no urban areas in the USA where open carry by non-LEO's is practiced by any significant number of people. (What I would call significant is > 1%.)

So if practically no one is doing it, it's obvious that there will be few or no instances of snatchings.

So all I can tell you is to visit a bad area in Phoenix and openly carry in a non-retention holster while touring area quickie marts and other places where gangsta types might congregate. If you don't fit the description yourself, find a middle-aged friend who is under 5'8" and 160 lbs to do the tour for you. The older and weaker-looking the better.

Let us all know how it works out.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Like so many others before me have stated, it would really depend on place and time. There would be times I would, and times I wouldn't.

For example, if the area I was visiting would be considered (by me at least) a place where I might find myself a target, then no, of course I wouldn't (I would much prefer it be a surprise to the BG if I found myself a target).

However, in the more peaceful areas where I would not consider myself a target (and yes, I know that can change in a heartbeat, no matter where one would find themself), I would like the option to open-carry if for no other reason than to show my support for the 2nd Amendment and show others that "good people carry guns, too."

[flintknapper]

So, I'll ask .... Does anyone have any real data linking open carry to dead or shot open carriers or is it just more "blood in the streets" arguments from the very side of the aisle that claims to hate them?

The problem is that there are no urban areas in the USA where open carry by non-LEO's is practiced by any significant number of people. (What I would call significant is > 1%.)

So if practically no one is doing it, it's obvious that there will be few or no instances of snatchings.

So all I can tell you is to visit a bad area in Phoenix and openly carry in a non-retention holster while touring area quickie marts and other places where gangsta types might congregate. If you don't fit the description yourself, find a middle-aged friend who is under 5'8" and 160 lbs to do the tour for you. The older and weaker-looking the better.

Let us all know how it works out.

Just like last time we had this discussion: I don't know, and YOU don't know, just how many people are carrying openly in urban areas. Neither of us has been to every urban area to check it out. Also, there are no statistics for either of us to draw upon.

So, as I suggested last time: Simply take any number of people you wish to represent "open carry in urban areas", and apply the gun snatching events that we know of (currently none) and EXTRAPOLATE!

"Few to none" (to quote you)... when extrapolated... is still "Few to none".

Again, you are fixated on the Urban content of the Open Carry proposition. And just like last time, I would like to point out: The vast majority of Texas is not urban.

For the third time, here is the whole spill: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... open+carry

Of course, new dialog is always welcome.

Thanks,

Flint.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Just like last time we had this discussion: I don't know, and YOU don't know, just how many people are carrying openly in urban areas. Neither of us has been to every urban area to check it out. Also, there are no statistics for either of us to draw upon.

I've been to a lot of urban areas in "open carry states". I've never seen any significant number of non-LEO people carrying openly. Have you? If so, let us all know when and where.

However, I am aware of a population group that routinely carrys openly in urban areas - cops. And of the total number of cops killed in the line of duty in a given year, a significant % (somewhere around 10 to 20% if I recall accurately) are killed with their own guns.

And cops are trained in hand to hand combat and weapon retention techniques. Frequently they wear retention type holsters as well. And they have the added benefit of a knowledge on the part of BG's that if you kill a cop, many other cops will come after you with a vengence.

So find a non-LEO population who carries openly in urban areas in significant numbers and let's see how many snatchings there are in a given year. It says here you can't point to such a population because they don't exist anywhere except in internet fantasies and speculations.

If nobody's doing it, it's no surprise that nobody's getting snatched. Show me some place where people are doing it.

Again, you are fixated on the Urban content of the Open Carry proposition. And just like last time, I would like to point out: The vast majority of Texas is not urban.

Sure. But a boatload of Texans do live in urban areas and many more visit them. So the tactical aspects of open carry in urban areas are relevant to them.

Note also that I still support changing the law to allow for open carry. I would probably do it myself sometime in the rural setting where I live.

[Sangiovese]

I would like to have the option. I doubt that i would carry openly very often (and if I did, it would be in a retention holster) but as many others as said, it would be nice to be able to make that choice for myself.

[Jeremae]

Of course I would Open Carry....

Why else did I buy a BarBQue gun?

[flintknapper]

Friend, aren't we just going to end up right back here:

(only with a different audience)?





frankie_the_yankee
Senior Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 757
Location: Smithville, TX Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject:


________________________________________

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Sure, I might have been a little sarcastic here and there in expressing this. But the truth is that I was amazed that anyone would argue with the idea that if you are standing in line at Mickey-D's with a group of 5 gangsta types behind you, that are twice as big as you, that it might be better for you if they didn't know you were packing than if you had a cocked & locked 1911 sticking out of a small of the back holster with no retention strap.




flintknapper wrote:

I don't remember anyone arguing any such thing. Certainly...open carry in the wrong environment could present an opportunity for someone to grab your weapon. It wouldn't even have to be BG/Thug/Gansta Type. A curious child could do it.

An extra level of awareness and a willingness to remove yourself from an area of threat might sometimes be needed. The vast majority of Texas is not a crowded urban area....so I don't understand your fixation on that. I know for a fact that Smithville doesn't fit the bill. I spent most of my life in Austin (30 miles NW of you) and visited Smithville regularly.

What IS being argued... is that many people in MOST parts of the State might well benefit from an open carry option. You seem to want to labor the idea that under some circumstances (crowded urban setting swelling with BG's) that open carry might not be the best idea. No revelation there.

I think your narrow position on Open Carry serves only to "Throw the baby out with the bath water". Sorry for the idiom.

Again, no one is arguing that an open carried weapon "could not" be snatched under certain circumstances. Likewise....no one has suggested that it is the perfect way to carry all the time (no method is).

I am simply asking you to consider the probability of a weapon being taken from ALL people, under ALL conditions...STATEWIDE. I believe it would be a rare event.




frankie_the_yankee wrote:

That works for me.

Maybe it's just me, but the tone of your post seems more "reasoned" and less "shrill" than some previous posts. Maybe some of mine were on the shrill side themselves.

Ruffled feathers and all that.

While living in Smithville, I spend a lot of time in Austin. So the urban angle is a big deal for me. And my Phoenix experiences clearly demonstrated to me that there are times and places where concealed carry is clearly better.

But I will freely acknowledge that there are times and places, mostly in rural settings IMO, where open carry is at least as good and maybe more comfortable. So if open carry were proposed for TX I would support it.

In Austin, I'd still carry concealed.
_________________
Ahm jus' a Southern boy trapped in a Yankee's body








srothstein
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 417 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject:


________________________________________
frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I shouldn't worry about an openly carried gun possibly being snatched by a BG in a crowded urban environment because, well, I'm wrong. A BG would just never do that, even if he were twice my size and a lot younger, and the gun was sitting there where it could be easily snatched, because BG's just don't do that and I should just take peoples' word for that and stop worrying about it.

After all, where did I ever get this silly notion that tactical surprise was something to be valued? Just because it worked for Hannibal, Rommel, MacArthur, Tojo, Nimitz, and Muhammed Ali, and the lack of it cost Detective Allen in Providence, RI his life, doesn't mean it would work for me.


srothstein wrote:

Frankie,

I would never say you were wrong about the advantage tactical surprise might give you. I would say you are not viewing the situation in its entirety though. Surprise is a definite advantage IF you can actually draw the gun. Consider the possibility of it hanging up on clothing, or the time it takes to get it out from where you keep it (I personally would never buy ankle carry for that reason). If you cannot get to the weapon, it is useless.

Also, surprise may help you, but if your lack of obvious defensive ability makes you a target, did the concealment really help or hurt?

On the other hand, I also never said that a BG would not snatch your gun. I said that you were making a faulty assumption that everyone else out there is bad guys. 99% of the people in the urban environment would not grab your gun because they are not BG's. Cops get their guns snatched not because they were walking around with it in open carry, but because they deliberately go put themselves in position to try to deal with BG's. Since you would not be doing this, the threat level of a snatch when you carry openly is not as high as you make it out to be, IMO.

So, what it comes down to is that there are plenty of valid arguments for both open and concealed carry. And we both agree to support both types of laws. I am a firm believer you have the right to carry openly or concealed as you desire.

One of the other things I have learned is that tactics is really an individual thing. Each of us develops our own tactics and we know what works for us. For example, one officer may prefer the driver in a traffic stop to stay in the car while another may prefer him to get out of the car at the stop. So tactics becomes a very personal choice and decision.

So, since we both get to make our own choice of tactics, and we both support laws to enable either choice, we do not have any arguments. We may have some interesting philosophical debates (that occasionally get a little heated) but we have no arguments. We are on the same side, after all.
_________________
Stephan Rothstein

[frankie_the_yankee]

Friend, aren't we just going to end up right back here:

(only with a different audience)?

Of course.

But when you or others tell me that snatching is not a problem in urban areas because we never hear of it, I must point out that the argument is a red herring. The reason we never hear of it is because almost no one carrys openly in urban areas. I've travelled pretty extensively and I've only seen two people (not counting myself) carrying openly who were not LEO. One was in a shopping mall in Phoenix around 8 or 9 years ago. The other was in Brattleboro, VT around 30 years ago. (Note that Brattleboro is not exactly an urban area.)

So I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how many non-LEO's they have seen openly carrying in urban environments, or to admit that practically no one does it.

The issue is germain to the overall wisdom of carrying in that (urban) environment, and yet I never get an answer.

To me, it is evident that in some fairly common circumstances a snatch would be easy to execute. Common sense tells us that if something is easy, someone will try it because they will have a high expectation of success. Urban areas are places where people gather. So there is a greater probability of a BG being nearby in an urban area than in a rural area.

It's pretty simple really.

[flintknapper]

Friend, aren't we just going to end up right back here:

(only with a different audience)?

Of course.

But when you or others tell me that snatching is not a problem in urban areas because we never hear of it, I must point out that the argument is a red herring. The reason we never hear of it is because almost no one carrys openly in urban areas. I've travelled pretty extensively and I've only seen two people (not counting myself) carrying openly who were not LEO. One was in a shopping mall in Phoenix around 8 or 9 years ago. The other was in Brattleboro, VT around 30 years ago. (Note that Brattleboro is not exactly an urban area.)

So I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how many non-LEO's they have seen openly carrying in urban environments, or to admit that practically no one does it.

The issue is germain to the overall wisdom of carrying in that (urban) environment, and yet I never get an answer.

To me, it is evident that in some fairly common circumstances a snatch would be easy to execute. Common sense tells us that if something is easy, someone will try it because they will have a high expectation of success. Urban areas are places where people gather. So there is a greater probability of a BG being nearby in an urban area than in a rural area.

It's pretty simple really.

Certainly... you will concede that you have not been to every urban area of every state that allows open carry, yes?

Further, it is reasonable to assume that you could not have possibly covered all of the urban environment that was available to you for any period of time that would reasonably constitute a "study", right?

Yet, we are being asked to rely on your self assigned expertise based solely on a casual observance of the people around you at the time.

I would be happy to go with the "two" that you have observed. Did either one of them in your presence have their gun snatched?

Do you have any reason to believe they had EVER had a gun snatched. My guess is that they had not, else the problem would be self correcting.

As much as I am loath to do someone else's work for them, I will go to OpenCarry.org and put forth a poll. I will simply ask of those who open carry, how many have had their guns snatched (or been involved in an attempted snatching).

Will you accept my findings, or are you going to dismiss the information I provide as so much Internet Folly?