Tough one - loose dog - their property

[Lynyrd]

A follow up. A few months ago, we woke up to see a SWAT team had surrounded the neighbors house and advanced in. For the next few hours, the careless dog owner and home owner were cuffed on the front porch and then hauled away. The dog went too. We haven't seen them since. Looks like it was a solid arrest.

That's good to hear. Keep your eyes peeled though, they may make bail and be back for a while.

[OldCurlyWolf]

Here's the situation.

I live in a Texas subdivision that has community mailboxes. The mailbox for my house is down a few houses from mine. On several occasions, the resident of that house allows their large (pitbull like) dog to run freely in the front yard or from the curb to the home. On 2 occasions the dog has charged me while I was going to pick up the mail. The owner calls the dog and so far nothing has happened but I am not sure how long my luck or the dog's training will hold out.

As a CHL holder and a result of the continued instances of the dog being loose I've decided it's now necessary to carry when I go to collect my mail. Furthermore, I've stopped my wife and child from collecting the mail.

But if and when it becomes necessary to pull and shoot to stop this dog at what point am I justified ?

When the dog charges ? Within a certain distance ? Must I get bitten first ? What if all of this occurs within the property lines of the residents yard* ?

*The person with the dog is not the owner of the house, but either a sporadic renter or friends of the residents. I confirmed this through license plate searches and tax records.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

First and most important legal point.

If the subdivision dedicated the street rights-of-way to the approving political subdivision, then in all likelyhood, the first 8 to 12 feet from the back of the curb are PUBLIC property and so is the community mail box. If the dog comes at you then, His own yard is not an element of what happens.

Check your subdivision plat and the approving authority for more definite information.

Easy there... I had to recently make two members of my local police department keenly aware of the difference between city/public property and my property with an easement.

I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property, and does not heighten or lessen my justification to shoot anyone or anything that is attacking me.

Mr. Sully421,

As a former LEO and as a current Professional Land Surveyor, in the state of Texas for almost 30 years, I can state that in many instances your 100% Guarantee is worthless. It all depends on the way the subdivision was created and accepted at to whether or not the footage immediately behind the curb is public or private and easements have nothing to do with that determination except for roadway or other passageway easements. I own a house in a subdivision with 28 feet wide paving and an 80 feet wide dedicated street right of way. The only Property rights I have in that 80 feet are Reversionary rights to 1/2 of the street if it becomes legally closed while I own the adjacent property. It is not in my deed, I do not pay taxes on it and I am not legally liable if someone has an accident while traversing it.

[Redneck_Buddha]

Sorry if already posted, but I believe about 5 years back someone ran into a real problem in Cedar Park with they shot an aggressive pit bull in a neighborhood. Seems like a bystander may have caught shrapnel and therein lay the problem.

[Diesel42]

I had a similar situation last week and I would like to add something as yet unsaid.

I live in a subdivision that's adjacent to the Trinity River in Fort Worth. I have seen coyotes, bobcats, and turkeys foraging in the neighborhood using the golf course as an access.

While walking my dog I was confronted by a coyote which stepped out into the street from between two cars. It was as big as my 55 pound Weimaraner puppy, less than 30 feet away and stayed frozen as we made eye contact. It didn't look at my dog, but at me.

I instantly dismissed the idea of shooting it with my CC 1911, because the angle of impact would certainly allow the bullet to bounce off the pavement and go who knows where. It was a clear demonstration to me that shooting is always the last option. So, I hissed at the coyote and told it to "git!" The coyote ran (keeping the parked cars between me and him).

In conclusion, I now carry pepper spray as well as my 1911 on dog walks.
Nick

[Lynyrd]

Here's the situation.

I live in a Texas subdivision that has community mailboxes. The mailbox for my house is down a few houses from mine. On several occasions, the resident of that house allows their large (pitbull like) dog to run freely in the front yard or from the curb to the home. On 2 occasions the dog has charged me while I was going to pick up the mail. The owner calls the dog and so far nothing has happened but I am not sure how long my luck or the dog's training will hold out.

As a CHL holder and a result of the continued instances of the dog being loose I've decided it's now necessary to carry when I go to collect my mail. Furthermore, I've stopped my wife and child from collecting the mail.

But if and when it becomes necessary to pull and shoot to stop this dog at what point am I justified ?

When the dog charges ? Within a certain distance ? Must I get bitten first ? What if all of this occurs within the property lines of the residents yard* ?

*The person with the dog is not the owner of the house, but either a sporadic renter or friends of the residents. I confirmed this through license plate searches and tax records.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

First and most important legal point.

If the subdivision dedicated the street rights-of-way to the approving political subdivision, then in all likelyhood, the first 8 to 12 feet from the back of the curb are PUBLIC property and so is the community mail box. If the dog comes at you then, His own yard is not an element of what happens.

Check your subdivision plat and the approving authority for more definite information.

Easy there... I had to recently make two members of my local police department keenly aware of the difference between city/public property and my property with an easement.

I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property, and does not heighten or lessen my justification to shoot anyone or anything that is attacking me.

Mr. Sully421,

As a former LEO and as a current Professional Land Surveyor, in the state of Texas for almost 30 years, I can state that in many instances your 100% Guarantee is worthless. It all depends on the way the subdivision was created and accepted at to whether or not the footage immediately behind the curb is public or private and easements have nothing to do with that determination except for roadway or other passageway easements. I own a house in a subdivision with 28 feet wide paving and an 80 feet wide dedicated street right of way. The only Property rights I have in that 80 feet are Reversionary rights to 1/2 of the street if it becomes legally closed while I own the adjacent property. It is not in my deed, I do not pay taxes on it and I am not legally liable if someone has an accident while traversing it.

While I don't live in town anymore, I built a custom home inside the city limits once where my plat showed that there was 15 feet on either side of the street that belonged to the city. The deciding factor is what the developer did when he carved the property into lots, built the streets, and then turned the streets over to the city, HOA, etc.

[Javier730]

I recently had been having a problem with my neighbors pitbull. The guy let his dog run around loose all day. The dog was not aggressive but rather annoying.

She would run into my yard as soon as the gates opened up and just run around. She would immediately run to my dogs bowl and eat anything he didn't finish (he doesn't eat much). If I tried to get her out she would run away and hide under one of my trucks or around the house. The owner did nothing.

I had to buy dog treats to get it to come out because it would always go in when I was leaving. I got tired of that and just started locking it in my yard and the owner didn't seem to care. Some people are really irresponsible and inconsiderate.

[AJSully421]

Here's the situation.

I live in a Texas subdivision that has community mailboxes. The mailbox for my house is down a few houses from mine. On several occasions, the resident of that house allows their large (pitbull like) dog to run freely in the front yard or from the curb to the home. On 2 occasions the dog has charged me while I was going to pick up the mail. The owner calls the dog and so far nothing has happened but I am not sure how long my luck or the dog's training will hold out.

As a CHL holder and a result of the continued instances of the dog being loose I've decided it's now necessary to carry when I go to collect my mail. Furthermore, I've stopped my wife and child from collecting the mail.

But if and when it becomes necessary to pull and shoot to stop this dog at what point am I justified ?

When the dog charges ? Within a certain distance ? Must I get bitten first ? What if all of this occurs within the property lines of the residents yard* ?

*The person with the dog is not the owner of the house, but either a sporadic renter or friends of the residents. I confirmed this through license plate searches and tax records.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

First and most important legal point.

If the subdivision dedicated the street rights-of-way to the approving political subdivision, then in all likelyhood, the first 8 to 12 feet from the back of the curb are PUBLIC property and so is the community mail box. If the dog comes at you then, His own yard is not an element of what happens.

Check your subdivision plat and the approving authority for more definite information.

Easy there... I had to recently make two members of my local police department keenly aware of the difference between city/public property and my property with an easement.

I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property, and does not heighten or lessen my justification to shoot anyone or anything that is attacking me.

Mr. Sully421,

As a former LEO and as a current Professional Land Surveyor, in the state of Texas for almost 30 years, I can state that in many instances your 100% Guarantee is worthless. It all depends on the way the subdivision was created and accepted at to whether or not the footage immediately behind the curb is public or private and easements have nothing to do with that determination except for roadway or other passageway easements. I own a house in a subdivision with 28 feet wide paving and an 80 feet wide dedicated street right of way. The only Property rights I have in that 80 feet are Reversionary rights to 1/2 of the street if it becomes legally closed while I own the adjacent property. It is not in my deed, I do not pay taxes on it and I am not legally liable if someone has an accident while traversing it.

I hear what you are saying... I really do. I think that you are uniquely qualified to answer this question:

But, let's say that you are not a retired LEO and are not allowed to carry under LEOSA, and that you do not have a LTC. Now, let's say that you are standing in that 80 feet of right of way in front of your house, carrying a pistol. Could a LEO make an arrest for UCW on you, and make charges stick, just like they could if you were carrying at the City Hall, public library, or at the local park without a license?

I bet not...

Above all else, whether the area is private property or "public property" does not change the ability of a person to use deadly force against a dog that is attacking them. That's my point.