Convince me that constitutional carry is a good thing

[warnmar10]

There were a few in my class who failed the range qualifications, at least on the first time. There are several LTC instructors on here who have seen students fail on the first try. It should not be assumed that it is an automatic.

What do you mean "at least on the first time." Did they come back on a subsequent day and retest or did the instructor let them have a do-over after everyone else finished the class?

I'm not trying to be obstinate about it. I just recall the training, testing and proficiency testing required to get my TDL when I was 16. When I was ~30 I got my Texas air conditioning license; more difficult than was my TDL or CHL.

Perhaps I paint with too broad a brush however there were a couple of people in the CHL classes I took that scared me. They had no business with a gun, certainly not in public. But at the end of the day we all left with a certificate of completion and the eligibility to apply for CHL.

[twomillenium]

There were a few in my class who failed the range qualifications, at least on the first time. There are several LTC instructors on here who have seen students fail on the first try. It should not be assumed that it is an automatic.

What do you mean "at least on the first time." Did they come back on a subsequent day and retest or did the instructor let them have a do-over after everyone else finished the class?

I'm not trying to be obstinate about it. I just recall the training, testing and proficiency testing required to get my TDL when I was 16. When I was ~30 I got my Texas air conditioning license; more difficult than was my TDL or CHL.

Perhaps I paint with too broad a brush however there were a couple of people in the CHL classes I took that scared me. They had no business with a gun, certainly not in public. But at the end of the day we all left with a certificate of completion and the eligibility to apply for CHL.

Students are allowed 3 chances to pass with a grade of 70%. This applies to the classroom exam and the shooting proficiency test.

[warnmar10]

Students are allowed 3 chances to pass with a grade of 70%. This applies to the classroom exam and the shooting proficiency test.

I wonder if there are statistics on the number of people who didn't score 70% in three tries?

Oh well, I'm done. FWIW, Constitutional carry doesn't scare me but I doubt I've convinced anyone to agree with me.

[Doug.38PR]

HB 375 was filed today, which does away with the licensing requirements to carry a handgun.

I know where folks come from on 2A unlicensed carry, I really do.... but at the same time I'm hesitant for my own selfish reasons. I feel like going through the class and shooting test make you a better 2A citizen. Without the class requirements, how would every day citizens be expected to know the law, when you can and cannot escalate force, etc?


Convince me otherwise (or agree with me too!).

Same way I know how to eat food, mow my yard, walk through a crowd, drive a car (driving school and a plastic card didn't teach me anything), riding a bike, hooking up a dvd player to a tv, cooking food, grilling meat, changing oil, using an ax, preparing a camp fire, growing food, etc. You just live life and be prudent as you go. You don't need the state testing you on engaging in your right to life, liberty and property.

[rotor]

Realistically like Charles said it won't pass in 2017. We have plenty of other issues that we who have LTC need to get passed that we like such as being able to carry where LEO can carry, clarification of signs on municipal property, etc. If the public really wanted the ability to carry they could sign up for a LTC course and get a license. Not the same as constitutional carry but still gives you the legal right to carry now. Enough people have LTC than we can possible get constitutional carry. Our numbers are increasing all the time and that is what may get us to constitutional carry. For now though, there are an awful lot of dumb people out there that don't know which end of a gun the bullet comes out of. They may have the constitutional right to have a gun but they worry me.

[rotor]

HB 375 was filed today, which does away with the licensing requirements to carry a handgun.

I know where folks come from on 2A unlicensed carry, I really do.... but at the same time I'm hesitant for my own selfish reasons. I feel like going through the class and shooting test make you a better 2A citizen. Without the class requirements, how would every day citizens be expected to know the law, when you can and cannot escalate force, etc?


Convince me otherwise (or agree with me too!).

Same way I know how to eat food, mow my yard, walk through a crowd, drive a car (driving school and a plastic card didn't teach me anything), riding a bike, hooking up a dvd player to a tv, cooking food, grilling meat, changing oil, using an ax, preparing a camp fire, growing food, etc. You just live life and be prudent as you go. You don't need the state testing you on engaging in your right to life, liberty and property.

You must be a bunch smarter than me. I wasn't born with the knowledge about how to ride a bike, etc. I am also a pretty good pilot but it sure took a lot of training to get there. The state does impose limits. I am old enough to not need a hunter safety course to get a hunting license, youngsters need one. I didn't learn how to weld until I was in my 50's and took the course with a bunch of high school students in a vocational training program. The skill did not come naturally. My 10 year old grandson knows how to shoot because I taught him how to do it safely. I don't claim the state needs to control everything but to be safe with a gun there needs to be some level of training. Have you been in the military? If so you probably went to boot camp like I did to learn the basics.

[Beiruty]

A better way to clear the path to constitutional carry, is to teach basic gun safety and marksmanship AND 4-hrs LTC course at the HS school level. Then, everyone one who went to the HS would be eligible to have an LTC or carry under the constitutional carry.

[flechero]

A better way to clear the path to constitutional carry, is to teach basic gun safety and marksmanship AND 4-hrs LTC course at the HS school level. Then, everyone one who went to the HS would be eligible to have an LTC or carry under the constitutional carry.

Not to mention all the people who grew up with no firearms exposure would be much safer in the real world.

[Jusme]

A better way to clear the path to constitutional carry, is to teach basic gun safety and marksmanship AND 4-hrs LTC course at the HS school level. Then, everyone one who went to the HS would be eligible to have an LTC or carry under the constitutional carry.

That is a good idea, but with the liberalism in public schools, I don't ever see that as a viable option. Secondly it would only affect and impact young people.

My thought process is that the right to keep and bear arms is an inherent right. And until someone shows that they are not capable of exercising that right responsibly, then there should be no "requirement" met.

That being said, I fully agree with Charles in that this will not pass, in Texas, in the near future. I don't see this bill even making it to Committee, but it does open the door for fewer restrictions on LTC holders. Along with the fact that open carry, and campus carry, has resulted in exactly the number of problems we predicted, resistance to more freedoms, will have a much quieter voice, and no matter how much "hidden and anecdotal" evidence the left tries to present, the ones listening to those voices, will grow harder of hearing. JMHO

[Middle Age Russ]

Basic firearms safety should begin from Pre-K to elementary school with programs like the NRA's Eddie Eagle. It should be continued in middle/high school with rule we as adults are (or at least should be) familiar with -- perhaps as part of Health classes or even Physical Education. Though the Left will oppose such training it could be done under the banner of public safety -- which they'd have a hard time arguing against.

I also doubt that the Left would go for marksmanship or similar training in public schools, except as an elective (optional) class or even an extra-curricular activity.

[warnmar10]

A better way to clear the path to constitutional carry, is to teach basic gun safety and marksmanship AND 4-hrs LTC course at the HS school level. Then, everyone one who went to the HS would be eligible to have an LTC or carry under the constitutional carry.

Hurrumph!

[steveincowtown]

Lest I me misquoted again, I want to begin by saying I am not opposed to unlicensed carry of a handgun. I also am confident that it will not pass in Texas in 2017.

As an attorney and a former police officer, the idea of people carrying handguns without 1) knowledge of the law; 2) sufficient skill at arms to survive a deadly assault; and 3) protection from the federal Gun Free School Zone law, worries me. My concern isn't that unlicensed people will be a safety issue for society.
Chas.

I certainly respect your opinion as a former LEO, and Attorney, a champion of gun rights, and a current LTC instructor. The fact remains that unlicensed carry hasn't been an issue in other states, and I suspect that in Texas it will work out the same.

With regards to knowledge of the law, a 1/2 day course doesn't provide this. You see post on this board all the time with questions from LTCers on material that should have been covered in the course. One must make the personal choice to become a student of the law.

With regards to having sufficient skill to survive an assault. This is unrelated to licensing and is in no way covered in the Texas LTC course. One must make the personal choice to acquire these skills.

With regards the Gun Free School Zone law this hasn't been an issue in other states and I don't see it becoming one in Texas. I also can't find a case where someone was convicted of just this. It is usually more of a tag on charge.

I would be lying if I said I was pretty bummed out that an NRA board member has this view of not only the points above, but the possibility of unlicensed carry moving forward.

The more I think about your post, the more puzzled I become. Which of my views causes you concern? Is it my support for unlicensed carry?

First let me acknowledge that this is your house, and your dinner party. If you don’t want something to discuss something that is most certainly your prerogative.
Re: unlicensed carry- I certainly believe you support it, but as an LTC instructor who benefits from the current licensing program I believe this could be seen as a conflict of priorities. I am also 100% sure that the fees you collect from teaching classes aren’t a big part of your income. I suspect that being an attorney pays better than being an instructor.

Is it my desire that good people not get into legal trouble because of a lack of knowledge?

The fact is that people just do not get charged with violating school zones all that often. Although the data is old, according to “Americans for Gun Safety” only 40 cases were brought from 2000-2002. Also, according to the NRA federal prosecution of gun crimes is down 40% since Obama took office.
“Federal prosecutors filed only 40 cases against those who brought a gun onto school property”
http://content.thirdway.org/publication ... gnored.pdf
“Jennifer Baker of the NRA cited her group's calculation that federal gun prosecutions have declined 40% under Obama's administration, after peaking in 2004.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/ ... ement-gap/

Is it my concern that good people may be injured or killed in a self-defense situation because they do not have the skill at arms to defend themselves?

I think this is great and I feel the same way. This is however I no way related to licensed or unlicensed carry. LTC classes do not have a “skills” portion and it is every gun owners (or chainsaw owner, or 4 wheeler owner, etc.) to take the personal responsibility of learning how to use this tool correctly.

Or is it the fact that I know the Legislature's opinion of unlicensed carry at this point in time?

I whole heartedly believe this as well, I just wish we had a better game time attitude. You are, and have been for many years, the leader when it comes to pushing forward LTC rights. I equate you stating publicly that CC is DOA with a Football Coach coming out on game day and telling the team “hey guys, we aren’t going to be champions, but let me tell you what games we can win.”
No matter how factual this is, I don’t think admitting failure before the game starts helps any of us.

I'm stumped.
Chas.

As I said, I am just here for respectful discussion. It’s your house.

[Beiruty]

1) Self defense is a personal constitution right.
2) Guns are everywhere in Texas
3) Crime is low in Texas, but not the lowest in the nation
4) Texas is a super Pro 2ndA and Super Red state
5) At middle school and junior high school level we have JROTC, Shotgun Teams, and Archery Teams.

So let all HS students be able to understand the firearms laws as self-defense laws, as per LTC course, And get a basic pistol training for safely handling and using said handguns. It is civic duty after all, AND this is what Dems ask for, Gun Safety! For the kids, just for the kids....