If you can't shoot it, don't show it!

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

User avatar

Topic author
Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 13
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

If you can't shoot it, don't show it!

#1

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Here is one of only two cases I found dealing with a CHL being convicted of violating 46.035(a) (failing to conceal). He claimed he and his wife were fearful of a female driver, but that didn't fly with the jury or the appellate court.

Moral: Don't try to defuse an incident by pulling your pistol, unless you would be justified in using deadly force. "If you can't shoot it, don't show it!" - a great rule of thumb to keep out of trouble. :thumbsup:

Here's the case:

2005 Tex. App. (LWC-4161); McDermott v. State;
MICHAEL ROBERT MCDERMOTT, Appellant v. THE STATE OF TEXAS, Appellee
June 13, 2005.

In The Court of Appeals Fifth District of Texas at Dallas

No. 05-04-01125-CR

On Appeal from the County Court at Law No. 1 Collin County, Texas

Trial Court Cause No. 001-86638-03

OPINION

Before Justices Morris, Francis, and Lang-Miers

Opinion By Justice Francis

A jury convicted Michael Robert McDermott of unlawfully carrying a handgun by a license holder, and the trial court assessed punishment at thirty days in jail, probated for six months, and a $50 fine. In three issues, appellant complains of charge error. We affirm.

Sarah Hudson was driving west on Parker Road in Plano with five children in her vehicle. While stopped at a red light at the intersection with Alma Road, Hudson heard the vehicle behind her honking. Hudson looked in her mirror and could see the driver flailing his arms, screaming, and making obscene gestures. The man, identified as appellant, wanted to move into the left turn lane, but was blocked by Hudson's vehicle. Hudson said she could not move up enough to make room for appellant. When the light turned green, appellant passed Hudson and continued to "flip" her off and yell.

Hudson also turned left onto Alma at the light and passed appellant. Appellant again made an obscene gesture and Hudson said she made the same gesture. At the next lighted intersection at Park Boulevard, Hudson said appellant continued yelling. She could not hear what he said because her windows were up. Hudson testified that at one point, appellant motioned for her to get out of her car. Not wanting to be "bullied," Hudson said she briefly opened her car door but did not get out. She saw appellant then reach under the front seat of his car and pull a gun from a bag. He then pointed the gun at her. Hudson said she was "scared" and called the police from her cell phone.

Appellant and his wife, who was with appellant when the altercation arose, testified that Hudson was the person who began "mouthing" and making obscene gestures at the first traffic light. Both also testified that after turning left onto Alma, Hudson swerved into their lane, temporarily forcing them out of the lane, and then repeatedly tapped her brakes in an effort to cause appellant to collide with the back of her vehicle. According to Mrs. McDermott, the children were riding unrestrained in Hudson's vehicle, causing her to fear for their safety. Once both vehicles stopped at the second lighted intersection, appellant rolled down his window and asked Hudson "if that's how she always drove with kids in her car." Hudson was yelling and cussing and then got out of her vehicle and came toward appellant's vehicle. Mrs. McDermott said she was "very afraid" because she did not know what Hudson was going to do, particularly in light of the fact she had tried to "run" appellant off the road and "already tried to cause an accident." To diffuse the situation, appellant said he displayed his gun to Hudson so she would "leave us alone." At that point, Hudson returned to her vehicle. Appellant said he did not know what else to do because Hudson had "started this thing, had chased us down, tried to make us have an accident, kept it going, and we had rolled down the windows and had an altercation." In three issues, appellant complains the trial court reversibly erred by refusing to give instructions on self-defense and the defenses of necessity and threats as justifiable force.

Appellant first complains he was entitled to an instruction on self-defense, which would have allowed the jury to consider whether he acted against the use of "unlawful force" as opposed to "unlawful deadly force." He argues he was entitled to any defensive issue raised by the evidence, and there was evidence of Hudson's "erratic behavior" and reasons why he "held a reasonable belief that force was immediately necessary to protect him against [Hudson's] use or attempted use of force." In making his argument, however, appellant completely ignores the statute under which he was convicted.

Section 46.035(a) of the Texas Penal Code makes it a crime for a person with a handgun license to intentionally fail to conceal the handgun. Subsection provides a defense: It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 46.035(b) (Vernon 2003). Thus, under the plain language of the statute, appellant was entitled to display the handgun only if he would have been justified in using deadly force under Chapter 9. Under Chapter 9, deadly force is justified in limited circumstances to protect life or property. See Tex. Pen. Code Ann. §§ 9.32, 9.33, 9.34(b), 9.42 (Vernon 2003). With respect to deadly force in defense of persons, a person would have to show he was protecting himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force. See Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 9.32(a)(3)(A) (Vernon 2003). Nothing in the statute allows appellant to display the weapon in response to "unlawful force." The charge included an instruction on "deadly force," and he does not complain that instruction was incorrect. We conclude the trial court did not err in denying appellant's self-defense instruction. We resolve the first issue against appellant. In his second issue, appellant argues the trial court erred by failing to give his requested instruction on the defense of necessity. Under the defense of necessity, conduct is justified if: (1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;


(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.
Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 9.22 (Vernon 2003). Having reviewed only the evidence that would support submission of the instruction, we conclude the facts of this case fail to give rise to evidence of an "imminent harm."

"Harm" means anything reasonably regarded as loss, disadvantage, or injury, including harm to another person in whose welfare the person affected is interested. Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 1.07(a)(25) (Vernon 2004-05). "Imminent" means something that is immediate, something that is going to happen now. Stefanoff v. State, 78 S.W.3d 496, 500 (Tex. App.-Austin 2002, pet. ref'd ). Reading these definitions together, imminent harm contemplates a reaction to a circumstance that must be the result of a "split-second decision [made] without time to consider the law." Id. More than a generalized fear of harm is required to raise the issue of imminent harm. Id.

Here, the evidence showed that after Hudson swerved into appellant's lane of traffic and tapped her brakes in an effort to cause a rear-end collision, appellant pulled up at the second lighted intersection, rolled down his window, and asked Hudson if that is how she always drove with children in the car. When Hudson got out of her car, appellant said he showed her his gun. When asked why he pulled out his weapon and showed it to Hudson, appellant responded, "Because this woman - I didn't know what else to do to get the woman away from us. She had already started this thing, had chased us down, tried to make us have an accident, kept it going, and we had rolled down the windows and had an altercation. The windows were then rolled back up and I thought it was over. She got out of the car and continued it, and I wanted her to leave us alone. So I have a license to carry a handgun and I pulled out my gun and showed her I had it."

Although appellant and his wife testified that they feared Hudson as she approached their vehicle, neither testified as to any specific harm that they feared from Hudson. According to Mrs. McDermott, Hudson was not carrying any weapon. Further, Mrs. McDermott testified that she told her husband to put his gun down. Finally, appellant specifically testified that he showed Hudson the gun because he wanted her to "leave us alone." Having reviewed the evidence, we conclude the evidence failed to raise the issue of "imminent harm." At most, the evidence perhaps raised an issue of some general sense of harm, which is not sufficient to raise the necessity defense. We resolve the second issue against appellant.

In his third issue, appellant argues the trial court erred in refusing his requested instruction on threats as justifiable force. The instruction sought by appellant provides: The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 9.04 (Vernon 2003).

This provision does not apply to appellant's case. Under the specific statute under which appellant was convicted, appellant was justified in displaying his weapon only if he were justified in using deadly force. See Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 43.065(b) (Vernon 2003). Whether appellant actually used deadly force is immaterial. We resolve the third issue against appellant.

We affirm the trial court's judgment.

JLaw
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:57 am
Location: Woodlands, TX

#2

Post by JLaw »

I can't think I'm the only one out here thinking how easy it would have been to make a quick turn and get away from this angry driver instead of pulling your pistol. Don't we as CHL holders have the responsibility to difuse the situation or retreat first (if possible and not inside your home) before we can even THINK of using deadly force? I think so. So what if "Hudson" was mouthing off and swerved into this guys lane, it would have been so easy to hit the brakes and let "Hudson" go or make a quick turn to get away from the situation, even though it sounds like the CHL holder started this ( which is dissappointing enough ).

Please chime in if you think my thinking is wrong!

Thank you for sharing, Charles.

JLaw

Jim101
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:10 am
Location: North Central Texas

#3

Post by Jim101 »

Retreat is the key.......I agree with JLaw..

Jim
NRA, TSRA
User avatar

jbirds1210
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: Texas City, Texas

#4

Post by jbirds1210 »

I completely agree with you guys...it would have been easy to take the next exit and let the driver go ahead. Having a great deal of experience driving through Houston during the day...I had a choice to take angry drivers for what they were or spend a great deal of time in prison. A single person could not carry the ammunition to shoot at all of the crazy, angry, speed hungry, insane drivers!! I must admit that I have put my hand on my weapon with discretion and the appearance that I was adjusting my clothes in situations which could have proved difficult to move away, such as a fast food drive through (which can prove to be a very volitile place at two in the morning when the bar lets out the same time as your shift).
NRA Life Member
TSRA Life Member

"No man stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child."

KinnyLee
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1295
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:59 pm
Contact:

#5

Post by KinnyLee »

JLaw wrote:I can't think I'm the only one out here thinking how easy it would have been to make a quick turn and get away from this angry driver instead of pulling your pistol. Don't we as CHL holders have the responsibility to difuse the situation or retreat first (if possible and not inside your home) before we can even THINK of using deadly force? I think so. So what if "Hudson" was mouthing off and swerved into this guys lane, it would have been so easy to hit the brakes and let "Hudson" go or make a quick turn to get away from the situation, even though it sounds like the CHL holder started this ( which is dissappointing enough ).

Please chime in if you think my thinking is wrong!

Thank you for sharing, Charles.

JLaw
Agreed 100% Not all CHL holders have that kind of mindset. It's a shame. I always try my best to educate my friends and inform them before they get their CHLs.

Kalrog
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1886
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:11 am
Location: Leander, TX
Contact:

#6

Post by Kalrog »

Sounds like the convicted was a willing participant and escalated the situation even before drawing the pistol. That right there negates (or at least seriously raises legality questions) the right to pull a handgun. He should have been found guilty under that section based on this information...

What was the other case that you found?
User avatar

Topic author
Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 13
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#7

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Kalrog wrote:What was the other case that you found?
Here's the other case. It's not as interesting, but it is not lacking in poor judgment either! I've highlighted portions of the Court's opinion that I think people should consider carefully, especially when we're tempted to say "Yeah, but he . . ." All that matters is what the jury believes.

Chas.

EARL SEAN SPIELMAN, Appellant v. THE STATE OF TEXAS, Appellee
In The Court of Appeals For The First District of Texas

NO. 01-04-00692-CR

May 19, 2005

On Appeal from the County Criminal Court at Law No. 4 Harris County, Texas

Trial Court Cause No. 1215093

MEMORANDUM OPINION

The State charged appellant, Earl Sean Spielman, with committing the misdemeanor offense of unlawfully carrying a handgun by a license holder. See Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 46.035(a) (Vernon 2003). A jury found him guilty of the offense, and the trial court assessed his punishment at one year of community supervision. In three points of error, appellant argues that (1) the evidence is legally and factually insufficient and (2) the trial court erred by admitting hearsay testimony. We affirm.

Background

On December 4, 2003, Alice Holt drove her two children, Chaunetta and Chad, to a local Social Security office. After parking in a reserved space in a parking garage, Holt left Chaunetta and Chad in the car while she went into the Social Security office. Chad was in the front seat, and Chaunetta was in the back seat, sleeping. Shortly thereafter, appellant arrived in his car to find his parking space occupied by Holt's car. Appellant approached the car and demanded that Chad move the car. Chad, who did not have a driver's license, woke up Chaunetta, who had been sleeping in the back seat. Chaunetta testified that, as she got out of the car, she told appellant that she would move it. Appellant returned to his car and got in briefly. He then got out of his car and moved toward Chaunetta, making threatening remarks. As appellant approached, Chaunetta noticed that he had his hand in his right pocket. She saw appellant pull out his handgun far enough from his pocket so that she knew it was a handgun. Chad testified that, because he was worried about Chaunetta's safety, he got out of the car and started to approach appellant. Chaunetta restrained him and told him that appellant had a handgun. Chad also testified that he saw the black handle of the handgun sticking out of appellant's pocket and saw appellant grab it and state, "You gonna assault me? Come on, come on. Move in closer." Chaunetta said that she too saw appellant grab the handgun again. The episode ended when a security officer arrived at the scene. Two other persons who witnessed the incident in the garage heard words being exchanged between appellant, Chaunetta, and Chad. These witnesses testified that appellant kept his hand in his right pocket and they did not see a gun. One witness also testified that she did not hear appellant mention having a gun.

Analysis

Legal Sufficiency

In his first point of error, appellant argues that the evidence is legally insufficient to support the verdict. Specifically, appellant argues that the evidence does not show that he intentionally failed to conceal the handgun. Rather, he contends that he inadvertently showed the handgun.

When reviewing legal sufficiency of the evidence to support a verdict, we view all of the evidence in the light most favorable to the verdict, asking whether any rational trier of fact could have found the essential elements of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. Jackson v. Virginia, 443 U.S. 307, 319, 99 S. Ct. 2781, 2789 (1979).

The jury found appellant guilty of unlawfully carrying a handgun by a license holder. See Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 46.035(a). Section 46.035(a) provides,


A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
Id. A person acts intentionally, or with intent, with respect to the nature of his conduct or to a result of his conduct when it is his conscious objective or desire to engage in the conduct or cause the result. Tex. Pen. Code Ann. § 6.03(a) (Vernon 2003).

The State had the burden to show that appellant intentionally failed to conceal his handgun. The evidence shows that Chaunetta saw appellant pull a handgun from his pocket. She could not see the entire handgun, but she saw enough of it to recognize that it was a handgun. She testified that she saw the handgun on two occasions. Chaunetta's brother, Chad, also testified he could see a handgun in appellant's right pocket. Chad testified that he saw appellant grab the handle of the handgun, which was black. Based on this evidence, we conclude that a rational trier of fact could conclude that appellant intentionally failed to conceal his handgun.

We overrule appellant's first point of error.

Factual Sufficiency

In his second point of error, appellant argues that the evidence is factually insufficient to support the verdict. Similarly to his argument under his first point of error, appellant argues that the evidence is factually insufficient to show that he intentionally failed to conceal his handgun. He points out that no eyewitnesses testified that he made any express mention of the handgun or that he produced and aimed the handgun at Chaunetta. Thus, he argues that his act of showing the handgun was inadvertent.

In a factual sufficiency review, we view all the evidence in a neutral light and set the verdict aside only if the evidence is so weak that the verdict is clearly wrong and manifestly unjust or the contrary evidence is so strong that the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt could not have been met. Escamilla v. State, 143 S.W.3d 814, 817-18 (Tex. Crim. App. 2004). In conducting a factual sufficiency review, we must discuss the evidence that appellant asserts is most important in allegedly undermining the jury's verdict. See Sims v. State, 99 S.W.3d 600, 603 (Tex. Crim. App. 2003). We must not substitute our judgment for that of the factfinder. Zuniga v. State, 144 S.W.3d 477, 481-82 (Tex. Crim. App. 2004). Unless the available record clearly reveals that a different result is appropriate, we must defer to the factfinder's determination concerning the weight given contradictory testimonial evidence because resolution often turns on an evaluation of credibility and demeanor. Johnson v. State, 23 S.W.3d 1, 8 (Tex. Crim. App. 2000).

An appellant's intent to commit an offense generally must be established by circumstantial evidence and may be inferred from appellant's acts, words, and conduct. Hernandez v. State, 819 S.W.2d 806, 810 (Tex. Crim. App. 1991). The evidence in this case shows that (1) Chaunetta and Chad testified that appellant removed his handgun far enough out of his pocket so that they could determine that it was a handgun; (2) appellant used a rough voice in speaking to Chaunetta and Chad; and (3) appellant yelled obscenities at Chaunetta and Chad. Specifically, Chaunetta testified that, when he approached her, appellant stated, "You scum of the earth. Why are you even here. That's my parking space. I paid - - I paid money for that parking space. . . . Why don't you people go back to where you came from?" Chad also testified that, as appellant was holding the handgun in his pocket, appellant stated, "You gonna assault me? Come on, come on. Move in closer."

The evidence also shows that two witnesses testified that they did not see a gun. Chaunetta and Chad both testified, however, that they saw appellant partially pull out a gun from his right pocket. A jury has the sole province of deciding what weight to give contradictory testimony because its decision turns on the evaluation of demeanor and credibility. Cain v. State, 958 S.W.2d 404, 408-09 (Tex. Crim. App. 1997). A jury's verdict is not manifestly unjust when it resolves conflicting views in favor of the State. Id. at 410. It is clear by the verdict that the jury chose to give more weight to Chaunetta's and Chad's testimony.

Although appellant did not point the handgun at Chaunetta or specifically refer to the handgun, the jury could have reasonably believed that appellant's act of partially removing the handgun from his pocket, together with his conduct and words, demonstrated that he intentionally failed to conceal his handgun. Based on all the evidence presented, we conclude that the evidence is factually sufficient to support the verdict.

We overrule appellant's second point of error.

Hearsay

In his third point of error, appellant argues that the trial court admitted inadmissible hearsay testimony. Specifically, appellant argues that the trial court erred in admitting Officer Vo's testimony that repeated Chaunetta's statements that appellant had purposefully revealed his handgun to her. Appellant objects to the following testimony:


She said he pulled out a gun and showed it to her. Showed it out from his front pocket, front right pocket. He didn't pull it out all the way, but he pulled it partially out where--where her brother and her can see his hand on his--his finger on the trigger.
Appellant objected to Officer Vo's testimony on hearsay grounds. On appeal, appellant argues that the State sought to admit this testimony under the excited utterance exception to the hearsay rule. See Tex. R. Evid. 803(2), 802. Appellant argues that this testimony was not an excited utterance because the record fails to show that Chaunetta was still excited at the time she spoke with Officer Vo.

In determining whether a trial court erred in admitting evidence, the standard for review is abuse of discretion. Mozon v. State, 991 S.W.2d 841, 846-47 (Tex. Crim. App. 1999). "A trial court abuses its discretion when its decision is so clearly wrong as to lie outside that zone within which reasonable persons might disagree." Foster v. State, 909 S.W.2d 86, 88 (Tex. App.--Houston [14th Dist.] 1995, pet. ref'd).

An excited utterance, which is a "statement relating to a startling event or condition made while the declarant was under the stress of excitement caused by the event or condition," is not excluded by the hearsay rule. Tex. R. Evid. 803(2). To qualify as an excited utterance, the following criteria must be met: (1) the statement must be the product of a startling event; (2) the declarant must be dominated by the emotion, excitement, fear or pain of the event; and (3) the statement must relate to the circumstances of the startling event. See Jackson v. State, 110 S.W.3d 626, 633 (Tex. App.--Houston [14th Dist.] 2003, pet. ref'd) (citing McFarland v. State, 845 S.W.2d 824, 846 (Tex. Crim. App. 1992)).

Appellant argues that the record fails to show that Chaunetta was still excited at the time she spoke with Officer Vo. Appellant asserts that, after the confrontation between appellant and Chaunetta occurred, the following events took place: (1) Officer Vo separated Chaunetta and appellant; (2) appellant moved his vehicle; (3) Chaunetta reparked her vehicle; (4) appellant parked his vehicle; and (5) appellant left the garage and went to his office.

The lapse of time between the event and declaration, and whether the statement is made in response to a question, are considerations in determining whether the statement is admissible as an excited utterance, but they are not dispositive. Lawton v. State, 913 S.W.2d 542, 553 (Tex. Crim. App. 1995). The critical factor is whether the emotions, excitement, fear, or pain of the event still dominated the declarant at the time of the statement. Zuliani v. State, 97 S.W.3d 589, 596 (Tex. Crim. App. 2003). If the statement is made while the declarant is still in the grip of emotion, excitement, fear, or pain and the statement relates to the exciting event, it is admissible even after an appreciable amount of time has elapsed. Penry v. State, 691 S.W.2d 636, 647 (Tex. Crim. App. 1985); Jones v. State, 772 S.W.2d 551, 555 (Tex. App.--Dallas 1988, pet. ref'd).

Here, the record does not reflect how much time passed after the confrontation between appellant and Chaunetta. However, Officer Vo testified that Chaunetta was very, very upset and had tears coming down her face. Moreover, on cross-examination, Chaunetta testified that she was emotional when she spoke to the security officer. We conclude that Officer Vo's testimony as to Chaunetta's statement after her confrontation with appellant satisfied the excited utterance exception to the hearsay rule. See Tex. R. Evid. 803(2). The trial court did not abuse its discretion in admitting Officer Vo's testimony.

We overrule appellant's third point of error.

Conclusion

We affirm the judgment of the trial court.

Evelyn V. Keyes Justice

Panel consists of Justices Nuchia, Keyes, and Bland.
User avatar

Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 6518
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

#8

Post by Paladin »

It's been my belief for a while now that not letting people see your gun protects you.

Just in case some incident happens... like some lowlife starts something. Even if you do the right thing, 100% legal, by the book... if they see your gun(and can describe it)... then they can make up any kind of story. Lowlifes don't have a moral code and don't care one bit about the truth.

All of a sudden you become the badguy that assaulted them with a gun.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Topic author
Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 13
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#9

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Paladin wrote:It's been my belief for a while now that not letting people see your gun protects you.

Just in case some incident happens... like some lowlife starts something. Even if you do the right thing, 100% legal, by the book... if they see your gun(and can describe it)... then they can make up any kind of story. Lowlifes don't have a moral code and don't care one bit about the truth.

All of a sudden you become the badguy that assaulted them with a gun.
You're absolutely correct! Another thing, always call the police. You want your story told first!

Chas.

JLaw
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:57 am
Location: Woodlands, TX

#10

Post by JLaw »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Paladin wrote:It's been my belief for a while now that not letting people see your gun protects you.

Just in case some incident happens... like some lowlife starts something. Even if you do the right thing, 100% legal, by the book... if they see your gun(and can describe it)... then they can make up any kind of story. Lowlifes don't have a moral code and don't care one bit about the truth.

All of a sudden you become the badguy that assaulted them with a gun.
You're absolutely correct! Another thing, always call the police. You want your story told first!

Chas.
Those statements were urged to me more than once in my CHL class. Good to hear them repeated.

JLaw

Jim101
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:10 am
Location: North Central Texas

#11

Post by Jim101 »

So, if your are in a situation with a low life and no one around.....You can't show your gun to make him back down? Because "he" will tell the police and you will get in trouble?? That doesn't seem right, if it makes him back down and not attack you isn't that what you want?

Jim
NRA, TSRA
User avatar

gigag04
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 5474
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:47 pm
Location: Houston

#12

Post by gigag04 »

Jim101 wrote:So, if your are in a situation with a low life and no one around.....You can't show your gun to make him back down? Because "he" will tell the police and you will get in trouble?? That doesn't seem right, if it makes him back down and not attack you isn't that what you want?

Jim
Here's a story I heard that may relate. It was told at my CHL class.

CHL holder pulls up to gas station in afternoon. Get's out begins pumping gas. Has pistil in OWB holster on hip with coat covering it. Three suspicious males walk up and demand money (no threats, no weapons). He non-chalantly pulls back his coat pocket to expose the piece by putting his hand in his pocket and says "sorry fellas...no money here."

The application was that he could've been in trouble if they had reported it - there was no justifiable use of force there.

-nick
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison
User avatar

jimlongley
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 6134
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:31 pm
Location: Allen, TX

#13

Post by jimlongley »

Paladin wrote:It's been my belief for a while now that not letting people see your gun protects you.

Just in case some incident happens... like some lowlife starts something. Even if you do the right thing, 100% legal, by the book... if they see your gun(and can describe it)... then they can make up any kind of story. Lowlifes don't have a moral code and don't care one bit about the truth.

All of a sudden you become the badguy that assaulted them with a gun.
Kind of reminds me of the drunken teenager who came to my house one very late night, and demanded to see my daughter, describing in exacting and explicit detail just what her intended to do with and to her.

After he physically threatened me a couple of times, my very astute wife handed me my (unloaded) shotgun which I proceeded to point at his head while I held him for the police.

When the police arrived and I let him up, he proceeded to try to have me arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. Dutch and George, the two cops who arrived first, found that quite funny and presented him with silver bracelets anyway.

The next day his mother decided to try similar tactics, which didn't work either.

My stepson seems to be related to them. :evil:
Real gun control, carrying 24/7/365
User avatar

Topic author
Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 13
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#14

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Jim101 wrote:So, if your are in a situation with a low life and no one around.....You can't show your gun to make him back down? Because "he" will tell the police and you will get in trouble?? That doesn't seem right, if it makes him back down and not attack you isn't that what you want?

Jim
Unfortunately, that's the risk we face if we are forced to draw on someone. The only thing we can do is make sure that we are fully justified (legally) in pulling a gun on someone and then call 911 ASAP. There is much to be said for making the first report to the police. You had better be able to articulate exactly why you feared for your life, stating specifically why you felt there was an immanent threat of death or serious bodily injury; anything less and you have a real problem.

One thing to note about the Speilman case is the language he used during the incident. Cursing is sure to inflame the situation and if witnesses hear you, don't expect a friendly witness at trial. When the investigating officer and jury have to decide who's gelling the truth, your attitude, demeanor and language will be far more important than many people realize. I think everyone understands this was not a textbook example of how a CHL should handle a situation.

Regards,
Chas.

Jim101
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:10 am
Location: North Central Texas

#15

Post by Jim101 »

Charles,

Thanks for the reply, I see what you mean. I realize there is alot of responsibility with having a CHL, and carrying a gun. I will take your words to heart.............

Jim
NRA, TSRA
Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”