I live in a Texas subdivision that has community mailboxes. The mailbox for my house is down a few houses from mine. On several occasions, the resident of that house allows their large (pitbull like) dog to run freely in the front yard or from the curb to the home. On 2 occasions the dog has charged me while I was going to pick up the mail. The owner calls the dog and so far nothing has happened but I am not sure how long my luck or the dog's training will hold out.
As a CHL holder and a result of the continued instances of the dog being loose I've decided it's now necessary to carry when I go to collect my mail. Furthermore, I've stopped my wife and child from collecting the mail.
But if and when it becomes necessary to pull and shoot to stop this dog at what point am I justified ?
When the dog charges ? Within a certain distance ? Must I get bitten first ? What if all of this occurs within the property lines of the residents yard* ?
*The person with the dog is not the owner of the house, but either a sporadic renter or friends of the residents. I confirmed this through license plate searches and tax records.
Thanks for any advice you can give.
First and most important legal point.
If the subdivision dedicated the street rights-of-way to the approving political subdivision, then in all likelyhood, the first 8 to 12 feet from the back of the curb are PUBLIC property and so is the community mail box. If the dog comes at you then, His own yard is not an element of what happens.
Check your subdivision plat and the approving authority for more definite information.
Easy there... I had to recently make two members of my local police department keenly aware of the difference between city/public property and my property with an easement.
I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property, and does not heighten or lessen my justification to shoot anyone or anything that is attacking me.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan, 1964
30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.
NRA, LTC, School Safety, Armed Security, & Body Guard Instructor
<I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property,>
I wouldn't 100% guarantee it. The street and typically a sidewalk adjacent to the street are located within a Right of Way (ROW) that is city (public) property. In Richardson the alley way behind our homes are also included in a ROW. Your property may be additionally encumbered with various other utility and access easements where the property owner owns the land (pays the taxes) but various organizations have access via those easements. I'm a civil engineer and work for a city and I have to clear this topic up with at least one resident each and every week when I tear down a tree building a road that they think is theirs or some other property they have installed in City ROW.
I see what I think may be a bit of thread drift...
If one is being attacked by a dangerous dog, does it really matter where you are, whether on the street, in your yard, or picking up mail at a community mail box?
Being attacked by a dangerous dog is being attacked by a dangerous dog. Period.
If such occurs, I will pepper spray first and if necessary resort to lethal means if me or mine are in mortal danger. If anyone thinks that statement sounds melodramatic, research the number of horror stories that not only Pits can (and have) created, but other breeds of big dogs that have attacked humans without cause. Death and major surgery have been the case when people couldn't or didn't have the means necessary to defend themselves.
Anyone recall the two people in San Francisco that were killed by two unleashed Pits a few years back? They weren't the only folks killed or maimed by dangerous dogs.
cacciato2006 wrote:<I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property,>
I wouldn't 100% guarantee it. The street and typically a sidewalk adjacent to the street are located within a Right of Way (ROW) that is city (public) property. In Richardson the alley way behind our homes are also included in a ROW. Your property may be additionally encumbered with various other utility and access easements where the property owner owns the land (pays the taxes) but various organizations have access via those easements. I'm a civil engineer and work for a city and I have to clear this topic up with at least one resident each and every week when I tear down a tree building a road that they think is theirs or some other property they have installed in City ROW.
While it is true that a right of way is a type of easement for things like street maintenance... I think that we can both agree that there is a whole lot of difference between a city ROW on my property and anything that could be construed as "public property". If you are saying that the first 8 feet of my front yard is the exact same as a local city park... Then I can't help you.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan, 1964
30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.
NRA, LTC, School Safety, Armed Security, & Body Guard Instructor
Abraham wrote:I see what I think may be a bit of thread drift...
If one is being attacked by a dangerous dog, does it really matter where you are, whether on the street, in your yard, or picking up mail at a community mail box?
Being attacked by a dangerous dog is being attacked by a dangerous dog. Period.
If such occurs, I will pepper spray first and if necessary resort to lethal means if me or mine are in mortal danger. If anyone thinks that statement sounds melodramatic, research the number of horror stories that not only Pits can (and have) created, but other breeds of big dogs that have attacked humans without cause. Death and major surgery have been the case when people couldn't or didn't have the means necessary to defend themselves.
Anyone recall the two people in San Francisco that were killed by two unleashed Pits a few years back? They weren't the only folks killed or maimed by dangerous dogs.
Texas law just doesn't make this easy. 1/2 oz of pepper spray is no guarantee and if the dog is anything like me, he might think I am putting out hot sauce as a condiment to me the main course.
It seems that I should get a pet rabbit or a duck and put them on a leash?
And when the dog attacks - boom. Maybe it doesn't matter where I am when this happens as long as the dog is loose and out of control.
Abraham wrote:
Being attacked by a dangerous dog is being attacked by a dangerous dog. Period.
Not necessarily. That is the problem. Is a barking dog considered to attacking? Some would say, yes and others would say, no. That is what creates some of the gray area. Not all barking dogs are angry and about to attack. Some just get excited and bark. Some are mad or afraid and will bark but won't bite. Some will just skip that barking part and go directly to biting. It just isn't as cut and dried as many would like to think it is.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
As someone who has spent years as a neighborhood watch coordinator I have one additional suggestion. If you as a resident of the community believe that the person is dealing drugs, contact the local detective who coordinates those type of investigations. They look for things like frequent car stops in front of the house, visitors regularly coming and going at odd hours and such, and if the things from their "list" are observed by you they will open an investigation. That might make your whole problem disappear as drug dealers don't like staying when the police have knocked on their door, or they know that a police car is parked nearby watching. I went through this exact same kind of a problem except there was no mailbox involved, just folks walking down the street, and the suspected drug dealer moved out in less than 30 days from the first police visit to their door.
NRA Life Member
My State Rep Hubert won't tell me his position on HB560. How about yours?
Or, if you live close to this particular neighbor, buy an extra wireless router at a garage sale, and program the SSID (name) to something like DEA Surveillance.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition. — Rudyard Kipling
NRA Endowment Member
TSRA Life Member
A follow up. A few months ago, we woke up to see a SWAT team had surrounded the neighbors house and advanced in. For the next few hours, the careless dog owner and home owner were cuffed on the front porch and then hauled away. The dog went too. We haven't seen them since. Looks like it was a solid arrest.
EdnaBambrick wrote:A follow up. A few months ago, we woke up to see a SWAT team had surrounded the neighbors house and advanced in. For the next few hours, the careless dog owner and home owner were cuffed on the front porch and then hauled away. The dog went too. We haven't seen them since. Looks like it was a solid arrest.
Great to hear. Sounds like the problem is solved. Karma has spoken.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams
I live in a Texas subdivision that has community mailboxes. The mailbox for my house is down a few houses from mine. On several occasions, the resident of that house allows their large (pitbull like) dog to run freely in the front yard or from the curb to the home. On 2 occasions the dog has charged me while I was going to pick up the mail. The owner calls the dog and so far nothing has happened but I am not sure how long my luck or the dog's training will hold out.
As a CHL holder and a result of the continued instances of the dog being loose I've decided it's now necessary to carry when I go to collect my mail. Furthermore, I've stopped my wife and child from collecting the mail.
But if and when it becomes necessary to pull and shoot to stop this dog at what point am I justified ?
When the dog charges ? Within a certain distance ? Must I get bitten first ? What if all of this occurs within the property lines of the residents yard* ?
*The person with the dog is not the owner of the house, but either a sporadic renter or friends of the residents. I confirmed this through license plate searches and tax records.
Thanks for any advice you can give.
First and most important legal point.
If the subdivision dedicated the street rights-of-way to the approving political subdivision, then in all likelyhood, the first 8 to 12 feet from the back of the curb are PUBLIC property and so is the community mail box. If the dog comes at you then, His own yard is not an element of what happens.
Check your subdivision plat and the approving authority for more definite information.
Easy there... I had to recently make two members of my local police department keenly aware of the difference between city/public property and my property with an easement.
I can 100% guarantee you that the first 8-12 feet of someone's yard in a subdivision IS NOT declared to be "public property". It will most certainly belong to the property owners. What there is out there is an easement so that utilities can be run, accessed and maintained... Sometimes there is even a sidewalk. While it is true that you cannot CT the cable guy from the box out front, nor prevent kids from riding bikes on the sidewalk... The doctrine of an easement is to give access to another person or party to what is wholly and entirely YOUR property. Just because any member of the public can walk down the sidewalk easement in front of my house does not make it public property, and does not heighten or lessen my justification to shoot anyone or anything that is attacking me.
Don't fall for the "easement" rationale. An easement does not change ownership of the property dedicated to an easement (unless it specifically does in the language of the easement). That land still belongs to the owner in all respects (again, unless modified by the terms of the easement) including upkeep, rights to defend, etc. The easement is just an agreement or term of a property covenant that gives rights to certain parties to access and use the land for certain specified reasons. That typically does not reduce your ownership rights or responsibilities (again, unless specified).
The minute that dog causes you to have a reasonable belief that immediate action is necessary to avoid serious bodily injury or death, Section 9 authorizes you to defend yourself...as long as you meet the deadly force authorization requirements in Sections 9.xx and are not NOT JUSTIFIED in using deadly force. And as always the justification of the term "reasonable" in the reasonable belief clause is always the key. Your circumstances may not rise to the use of deadly force.
tex
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA Pistol Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI Instructor Pilot
Not that I doubt you ---BUT---If that dog it intimidating you, what about the postman that deposits the mail? Post office take it serious about dogs and the postal carriers. If postal carrier hasn't said anything about it I tend to think you might be overacting.
ldj1002 wrote:Not that I doubt you ---BUT---If that dog it intimidating you, what about the postman that deposits the mail? Post office take it serious about dogs and the postal carriers. If postal carrier hasn't said anything about it I tend to think you might be overacting.
Depends on how the mail is delivered. My Postman never gets out of his vehicle.
