I have an LTC but was Denied Purchase by FBI

[LSUTiger]

As frustrating as it is look on the bright side, it will be sorted out favorably I'm sure, knock on wood. In a timely fashion? That's another story.

If that happen to me I might consider telling the gunstore nevermind and purchasing the gun elsewhere. However, I would be curious to know what the reason is for the hold up and would like to know if I should expect issues in the future, so letting the situation play out might not be a bad idea. There may be some permanent mix-up that needs to get rectified instead of a one time mistake.

On a slightly different note, as a frequent browser of the gun counter, I have seen on a few occasions people attempting to purchase a firearm and turn combative against the clerk when they are denied.

But if you eaves drop long enough, you'll hear things that'll make you believe the purchaser is ineligible to buy as in convicted felon. Statements like, "that was supposed to be expunged from my record" or "they said it was not going to go on my record" or some variation of "I have committed a crime for which I was caught but now want to buy a gun" or "she said she was 18" or " I only hit her one time" or "I wasn't my weed" or some form of " I didn't do it but..."

Has anyone else ever witnessed a sale denial situation get tense?

[E.Marquez]

...

Question.
... Do you believe a jury would not find that FFL liable should you have used that newly purchased gun in a crime to say kill your spouse?
...

The jury who would find the FFL liable in that circumstance would likely do so whether or not a NICS was done.

Point taken

[The Wall]

As far as the form you are required to fill out, It's my almost certain belief that it stays with the FFL. They don't send it to anyone. The FBI,ATF, or any law enforcement have no clue you have purchased a gun. Them have option with LTC holders whether they make the call or not. They could base this on how you look or present yourself for example. If someone is covered in gang tattoos I would check their LTC, DL, and make the call. Is that profiling? Darn right it is. I don't remember any law that says an FFL can't profile. They have to protect their license. Nothings perfect and I'm sure you'll get this issue resolved. Looks like you're doing it right to me. A lot of us are watching for the outcome.

[E.Marquez]

You make a very valid point, while it is well within your right to run the NCIS BG check it is within others right to refuse it. From my understanding it is up to the FFL/stores digression to check your BG on all firearms purchases. IMO since I passed the rigorous BG check from the state of Texas, I feel like I should not have to wait to pass one again. Would I take my business elsewhere? TBH it would depend on how good of a deal I was getting at the time.

I guess I view the LTC/ NICS bypass as i do a veterans discount .. If offered and it works out Im happy to accept, if not, I hold no ill will against the shop.
likley I too would be frustrated if the check could have been bypassed, and then a mix-up caused a denial from a NICS check.
I guess for an established gun owner who has more than a few firearms, the delay in purchasing a new gun is not a show stopper .. I can still defend myself and family, hunt anything from rabbit to moose, plink for fun with firearms on hand... so the denial would be a disappointment for sure, frustrating absolutely, but not as critical as it might be for that first time buyer with a freshly minted LTC and experience from some self defense shooting course they just complated.

In retrospect, I guess as a FFL Id probably let my gut tell me to allow the LTC bypass or run a NICS, but not have a zero tolerance always run it on every LTC possessing customer.

[mrvmax]

The store owner asked if I've ever held a security clearance, and when I replied in the positive, she stated "that's probably it, but you never know with these bureaucrats".

.

What does this have to do with anything? Either you have something in your background, the clerk entered the wrong info or your was pulled randomly for further review (I have been told that the FBI will randomly pull checks for further review). I would not buy from that dealer anymore unless they bypass the NICS check.

[DocV]

The topic pretty much says it all. I have an LTC that was issued very recently (last week) by the DPS, which obviously included an FBI background check. When I tried to buy a firearm in a store, I was denied. I've already appealed through the FBI's NICS appeal process, but cannot fathom why this would happen. I've never been detained, arrested, or had anything but pleasant interactions with law enforcement. I have no restraining orders, am not a drug addict, etc.

....
None of which applies to me - not even close.

So, do you have plastic in hand? Based on your 15 August post in "Is there Accountability" http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1100323, it seems you were still waiting on plastic and were expecting it next week. Without that plastic, you will go through the FBI check.

[vjallen75]

You make a very valid point, while it is well within your right to run the NCIS BG check it is within others right to refuse it. From my understanding it is up to the FFL/stores digression to check your BG on all firearms purchases. IMO since I passed the rigorous BG check from the state of Texas, I feel like I should not have to wait to pass one again. Would I take my business elsewhere? TBH it would depend on how good of a deal I was getting at the time.

I guess I view the LTC/ NICS bypass as i do a veterans discount .. If offered and it works out Im happy to accept, if not, I hold no ill will against the shop.
likley I too would be frustrated if the check could have been bypassed, and then a mix-up caused a denial from a NICS check.
I guess for an established gun owner who has more than a few firearms, the delay in purchasing a new gun is not a show stopper .. I can still defend myself and family, hunt anything from rabbit to moose, plink for fun with firearms on hand... so the denial would be a disappointment for sure, frustrating absolutely, but not as critical as it might be for that first time buyer with a freshly minted LTC and experience from some self defense shooting course they just complated.

In retrospect, I guess as a FFL Id probably let my gut tell me to allow the LTC bypass or run a NICS, but not have a zero tolerance always run it on every LTC possessing customer.

[jb2012]

Yeah I probably wouldn't continue patronizing that store myself. But I would try and figure out the issue so that it doesn't happen again, should they run a BG check again.

[remanifest]

Thank you guys for all the input thus far.

To clarify, I did NOT have plastic in hand - just had been approved and had the card mailed, so the NICS was not out of line at all for the FFL.

I called the store today, and was told I had another denial on yesterday's application. There is absolutely nothing in my background - plastic is in hand today.

When I asked the FFL if they could sell the firearm without NICS now that I have plastic in hand, they said they couldn't because of the denial, and that I have to sort that out first. She said if I'd had plastic in hand she wouldn't have run me through NICS in the first place, so my prior statement to that effect for other LTC holders was based on a mistaken perception.

All I can do now is wait for the FBI to get their heads out of the sand. Next time, I'll bypass this whole thing with the LTC in hand. I trust this FFL - she's clearly indicated she's never run into this before, that she doesn't like the red tape, and she's sorry this is happening.

I'll keep this thread updated so we can all see where this goes - hope this post moves some of the hate away from the FFL, who seems to be doing everything right to me, and who has been nothing but kind and cordial to me & my family.

[The Wall]

Nicely said, and it's cool you're supporting the FFL. But! If you can't wait to get the gun maybe this time you can go somewhere else with your in hand LTC. Still persue the FBI thing so you can use your favorite FFL for your next gun.

[DocV]

You are going to appeal this denial, correct? It seems best to do so to me.

[remanifest]

You are going to appeal this denial, correct? It seems best to do so to me.

Yes. I appealed the denial on 8/16. Only annoying thing is that I now need to get fingerprint cards done and mail those in to the FBI so they can associate those with my "file". Apparently, they're not allowed to use electronic fingerprints at the FBI. According to the agent I spoke to, those fingerprints are for the state. Not sure if he was blowing smoke, but he was very particular about saying that they needed to be physical fingerprint cards, but that "I may be able to scan them in, depending upon the quality of the fingerprint card". This contradiction wasn't lost on me, but this is what I was told.

So far, everyone's just been informative throughout the process.

[Pawpaw]

Thank you guys for all the input thus far.

To clarify, I did NOT have plastic in hand - just had been approved and had the card mailed, so the NICS was not out of line at all for the FFL.

I called the store today, and was told I had another denial on yesterday's application. There is absolutely nothing in my background - plastic is in hand today.

When I asked the FFL if they could sell the firearm without NICS now that I have plastic in hand, they said they couldn't because of the denial, and that I have to sort that out first. She said if I'd had plastic in hand she wouldn't have run me through NICS in the first place, so my prior statement to that effect for other LTC holders was based on a mistaken perception.

All I can do now is wait for the FBI to get their heads out of the sand. Next time, I'll bypass this whole thing with the LTC in hand. I trust this FFL - she's clearly indicated she's never run into this before, that she doesn't like the red tape, and she's sorry this is happening.

I'll keep this thread updated so we can all see where this goes - hope this post moves some of the hate away from the FFL, who seems to be doing everything right to me, and who has been nothing but kind and cordial to me & my family.

That is a lot different than, "I have an LTC" which you said in your original post and even titled the thread.

[remanifest]

Thank you guys for all the input thus far.

To clarify, I did NOT have plastic in hand - just had been approved and had the card mailed, so the NICS was not out of line at all for the FFL.

I called the store today, and was told I had another denial on yesterday's application. There is absolutely nothing in my background - plastic is in hand today.

When I asked the FFL if they could sell the firearm without NICS now that I have plastic in hand, they said they couldn't because of the denial, and that I have to sort that out first. She said if I'd had plastic in hand she wouldn't have run me through NICS in the first place, so my prior statement to that effect for other LTC holders was based on a mistaken perception.

All I can do now is wait for the FBI to get their heads out of the sand. Next time, I'll bypass this whole thing with the LTC in hand. I trust this FFL - she's clearly indicated she's never run into this before, that she doesn't like the red tape, and she's sorry this is happening.

I'll keep this thread updated so we can all see where this goes - hope this post moves some of the hate away from the FFL, who seems to be doing everything right to me, and who has been nothing but kind and cordial to me & my family.

That is a lot different than, "I have an LTC" which you said in your original post and even titled the thread.

Apologies - my intent in the statement was that if someone were to query me electronically, I would assume they (the FBI) would have been able to see that "we've done a background check on this guy and said he's good to go", and potentially that the state of Texas had issued the LTC. I definitely see how this was unclear, and should have been much more specific in the OP.

[TXPeaceOfficerDave]

Remember. There are some places you buy weapons that are REQUIRED BY LAW to run your NICS check REGARDLESS OF YOUR STATUS AS AN LTC HOLDER!!! Let me give you one. AAFES at Randolph AFB right here in Universal City, TX. They do NOT recognize the Texas LTC and they run NICS no matter what. In fact, when you buy a weapon there you must fill out about three times the moral ATF paperwork and also register with base commander paperwork. Not joking. If you think I am wrong you're more than welcome to please go there and attempt to purchase for yourself. :-)