It's finally been settled!

[flintknapper]

TAM wrote:

My youngest brother owns a 1971 Jaguar XKE-12. It has a 5.7 liter V-12 under the hood, fed by a trio of carburetors. In that era, it was a true supercar of the same ilk as Ferraris and Aston Martins. It is a real treat to drive, but it does NOT reward sloppy habits. It goes exactly where you point it, and the connection between the steering and front tire patches is direct. There is zero slop in the steering. It demands precision, and it rewards precision with a remarkable driving experience. OTH, if you over-correct, you will be rewarded with bad juju. You literally feel the road surface in your hands, and can tell exactly what your tires are doing. The connection between the gas pedal and the engine is equally direct and linear. There is no mush in the pedal. There is no delay in the throttle response either. The car leaps forward immediately when you give it the gas. The only difference between a small amount of pedal and a big amount of pedal is how hard it pushes you back into the seat....but the response is right now. If you give it too much gas when you didn't mean to, you are rewarded with bad juju. Not enough gas = not enough juju. The brakes are equally responsive, with no mush in the pedal. Either too little or too much pressure on the brake pedal rewards you with bad juju. The right amount is astonishing for its efficiency. The ride is on the harsh side. It has suspension, but that suspension (using the technology of the day) was calibrated to control a car going 150 mph, not one going 45 mph. The interior ergonomics are designed for high performance driving and comfort is secondary.......so while I would gladly borrow it for a day of spirited driving on curvy country roads, it is not a car I would choose for daily commuting. The electronics are by Lucas, Prince of Darkness.....and you need a set of British Whitworth tools if you want to work on it yourself. You can work on it yourself if you want to, but most XKE owners I know (my brother included) also maintain friendly relationships with their local XKE-specialist mechanic. I said that driving it is a real treat, and it is, but the whole time I'm behind the wheel, I'm scared that some knucklehead is going to run into me.....or that in the process of trying to avoid said knucklehead, I'll over-correct with steering/gas/brakes. The car demands precision, and it is not happy in traffic. It wants the open road, preferably with lots of curves. It's a crapshoot whether it will light on the first turn of the ignition key or not.....or not light at all.....in which case you get to lift that sexy forward-hinged hood while an admiring crowd gathers around and asks a lot of questions.....which in the moment, if you are honest, you have trouble answering.....because you had to raise your hood. Finally, the XKE hasn't been built that will last 200,000+ miles on regular oil changes.

^^^^^^^^ All true.

When I was in college I had a '69 XKE Roadster, 4.2 six with Dual Strombergs. Really enjoyed that vehicle for all the reasons listed above, but it was not a particularly reliable car and required an incredible amount of maintenance. But....lord was it worth it!

lift that sexy forward-hinged hood

Shame on you! Jags do NOT have hoods. They have a 'Bonnet'.

Also, they (certain year models) actually came with a rudimentary tool kit (hammer for the knock off spoked wheels, various small hand tools) and an instruction manual. Had to laugh when reading it, things like: "Take the spanner (we call it a wrench) and address the nut smartly".........

[Skiprr]

When I was in college I had a '69 XKE Roadster, 4.2 six with Dual Strombergs. Really enjoyed that vehicle for all the reasons listed above, but it was not a particularly reliable car and required an incredible amount of maintenance. But....lord was it worth it!

So you're another one who made a less-than-practical vehicle decision in college. Mine was a used '68 Vette fastback customized with a 427 Offenhauser engine, a 4-barrel quadjet carb, and a radical cam that made it sound nastier than any Harley.

Miracle I didn't kill myself, and that I got only one speeding ticket. Also a miracle that it didn't fall to pieces from vibration when I got it up to 130. But it did get "the need for speed" out of my system. I stuck with manual transmissions for the next 20 years simply because I preferred the control it gave, but I succumbed to the dark side and went automatic when driving in big-city commute traffic became simply too much as I grew older.

Does any car manufacturer still offer a manual transmission anymore? Paddle shifters are way-cool, but don't count.

Wait; it's all germane to TAM's metaphor. The 1911 vs. Glock thing is very much like caliber wars: ain't no single answer, and anybody who says there is, well, is wrong. And I almost never chime in on the issue because I own and shoot all-steel 1911s, hybrid 1911 formats, Glocks, other plastic striker-fired guns, and some others. Even own one DA/SA (auto-decocker) handgun, though those are generally my least favorite.

Yes, many like to place the 1911 upon an altar, but it's had it's day and overstayed it's welcome.

Much like guys who clamor to trot out their beloved old putt-putt cars while smiling and waving in geezer filled parades, bald heads and white beards shining, the 1911 will always be loved by the diehard.

A souped up, muscular, high tech, semi-auto it ain't.

It's a tired, old has been and should be given a dignified pasture to die in...

Abraham...wait a minute. Aren't you and I both geezers, bald heads and white beards aside? Don't know about you, but I'm not ready to be given dignified pasture.

Let's consider what we actually shoot.

Where are the ray guns predicted in Heinlein's generation, the phasers of Start Trek? True centerfire, self-contained ammunition was invented in 1829 and eventually "perfected" in 1855. The primers in almost all our centerfire ammo are either Berdan or Boxer, both of which were patented in 1866.

Until we get laser blasters or a "phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range," we're still delivering ammo that was designed over 150 years ago. And it's still working pretty well for us. Mind you, though, that the ammo has been examined, researched, tweaked, and improved to the point that--though it is still essentially of the same design--it might be unrecognizable to Hiram Berdan or Edward Boxer.

As has the 1911; I think Browning would be proud.

Long years have passed since the patents for the M1911 pistol expired. Any builder may produce the gun as long as it satifies federal statutes as a manufacturer. That, and the gun's popularity, explain why so many makers crowd the field and why such a wide variety of grades is available. There is demand not only for average-price-point models but also for .45s in the high-end range. I don't mean custom pistolsmiths building up highly specialized guns on otherwise plain platforms or from disparate parts, but rather companies that create guns from the keel up as elite fighting tools.

For more than 10 decades the Colt Government Model 1911 has been without challenge the most recognized, most imitated, most influential, and most used semiautomatic handgun in the world... If anything, the Model 1911 pistol--in all its forms, chamberings, and variations--is more popular today worldwide than it has been at any time since John Browning applied for the basic patents under-lying its design. No other firearm on earth can match its record for longevity, versatility, and performance.

And the legacy continues: The U.S. Marines (Special Operations Command) recently adopted a modern Colt 1911 to serve as its close quarters battle pistol... Go to any major pistol competition today and you will find that the 1911 not only remains the most popular but also the most successful design to date.

Yep, it costs more, often a lot more. But today's 1911 is no more like your great-grandfather's 1911 than are the circa 1866 centerfire cartridges it shoots.

Now, to be realistic. Is a 1911 my preferred EDC? Yep. Have I performed over 10,000 reloads to get a mag change to the state of unconscious competence? Yep...at least I trust myself on that point. I carry 22 rounds on my person and, no, I can't do it nearly like Travis Tomasei does in this clip...with a single-stack 1911, BTW.



But the whole argument about "low" capacity magazines is specious, whether from the political side or shooter. You need to be only modestly proficient to reload in one second or less.

If you ask me to become a military advisor to a fictional nation fighting the war on terror, would I recommend it outfit its troops with 1911s? Nope. I'd be all about the Glock.

If you're in a KIA Sorento and I need to chase you down, then yeah, I'd choose the Vette I unfortunately sold way back when rather than an identical Sorento. If it's the zombie apocalypse and I need a vehicle, I'd ditch the Vette and grab the Sorento.

If all I have is a handgun and I need to decide whether or not to take a headshot at 20 feet to save a hostage, I'd be confident with my 1911, less so with any of my Glocks, even the tactical lengths.

It is absolutely true that the probability of defensively needing to do anything but hit a large COM or even pelvic area at more than 10 feet is about the same as winning the Powerball. But if you trust your 1911 to run, and you train with it (there is zero time delay between a 1911 manual safety and a Glock, BTW) I'll take the Vette over the Sorento.

To each his own. I also prefer an AR-15 as a home-defense gun. Another controversy, no doubt.

[flintknapper]

When I was in college I had a '69 XKE Roadster, 4.2 six with Dual Strombergs. Really enjoyed that vehicle for all the reasons listed above, but it was not a particularly reliable car and required an incredible amount of maintenance. But....lord was it worth it!

So you're another one who made a less-than-practical vehicle decision in college. Mine was a used '68 Vette fastback customized with a 427 Offenhauser engine, a 4-barrel quadjet carb, and a radical cam that made it sound nastier than any Harley.

Miracle I didn't kill myself, and that I got only one speeding ticket. Also a miracle that it didn't fall to pieces from vibration when I got it up to 130. But it did get "the need for speed" out of my system. I stuck with manual transmissions for the next 20 years simply because I preferred the control it gave,

Yes, not practical transportation for commuting back and forth to school. But decidedly 'practical' for the winding hill country roads of 1970's era Austin.

My younger brother had a '69 Vette (white convertible, 350 cu. 4 speed). Friend of ours a '69 with 427, 4 speed. Not much fun to change the #8 spark plug in either one!

Slightly older friend of our's Father....was car collector. Took a 1971 Pantera, plucked a perfectly good running 351 Cleveland out of it and bolted a Ford 427 to the ZF transaxle. None of us could 'hang' with that thing! Eventually, the 427 proved too much for the ZF.

Good 'Ol Days! All of us survived them somehow.

1911's do the same thing for me.

[Bitter Clinger]

Now, to be realistic. Is a 1911 my preferred EDC? Yep. Have I performed over 10,000 reloads to get a mag change to the state of unconscious competence? Yep...at least I trust myself on that point. I carry 22 rounds on my person and, no, I can't do it nearly like Travis Tomasei does in this clip...with a single-stack 1911, BTW.

Holy Moly! that was FAST!!!!!

[Abraham]

Skiprr,

Bald - check, and what hair I possess comes out of my ears, - check...

And, yes, it's just so much fun ragging on the 1911 fans.

They get so riled, eyes bug out, veins go apopin in the foreheads, and then the fun commences.

They sing: My 1911 can do no wrong.

It has more power than a BMG and can shoot twice as far.

Why, my 1911...is prettier than your old nasty Glock.

My 1911 eats Kennel Ration.

My 1911 is prettier than youuuuuuuuuuuuur Glock, my 1911 blah, blah, blah....OK, I'll stop typing, I'm laughing too much.

[n5wmk]

Shame on you! Jags do NOT have hoods. They have a 'Bonnet'.

I beg to differ. They (British cars) do have hoods - if they are convertibles. Here in the USA, we call them convertible tops...

[The Annoyed Man]

TAM wrote:

When I was in college I had a '69 XKE Roadster, 4.2 six with Dual Strombergs. Really enjoyed that vehicle for all the reasons listed above, but it was not a particularly reliable car and required an incredible amount of maintenance. But....lord was it worth it!

lift that sexy forward-hinged hood

Shame on you! Jags do NOT have hoods. They have a 'Bonnet'.

Also, they (certain year models) actually came with a rudimentary tool kit (hammer for the knock off spoked wheels, various small hand tools) and an instruction manual. Had to laugh when reading it, things like: "Take the spanner (we call it a wrench) and address the nut smartly".........

What was I thinking?

I note, by the way, that my brother's daily driver is a used Honda Civic, and he works from a VERY used Ford F350.....both of which have proven to be way more reliable than that Jag. But Lord, that car looks good in the garage.

And the legacy continues: The U.S. Marines (Special Operations Command) recently adopted a modern Colt 1911 to serve as its close quarters battle pistol... Go to any major pistol competition today and you will find that the 1911 not only remains the most popular but also the most successful design to date.

I was just talking about this with someone on Tuesday. I was out at ETTS, working with a trainer on my long range shooting.

• [sidebar]$80/hour for 3 hours, and I learned more than I have in the previous 3 decades.....it was well worth it. If I may brag a bit, I was able to nail dead on a 1/2 piece of a orange clay pigeon that was laying on the 800 yard berm. I almost immediately started sprouting chest hair. It was awesome.[/sidebar]

Anyway, my instructor is a former MARSOC scout sniper....and looks the part....and at the end of the training session, we got to talking pistols. I mentioned that I love 1911s and carried them for several years, but that more recently I've been carrying 9mm Glocks. He said that he carried an issued 1911 when he was "with the Teams" as he put it, but that after he left the service and was hired to do "government work" (which he did not elaborate upon, and I didn't press him on the details) for a while, he had to carry Glocks and had gotten used to those two. Like me, he loves 1911s, but he daily carries Glocks....in 9mm. When I told him that I also had a G43 for deeper concealment, he said he loves that little pistol and wants one......a Glock with "reduced" capacity. I would imagine that he can kill a man at 50 paces with nothing more than a steely glance, so he does not feel insecure at only having 6+1 rounds of 9mm, or 8+1 rounds of .45. But he EDCs a 19 or 17 (I can't remember which). But he still loves him some 1911.

Now, I'm guessing that only a small number of us on this forum have been trained to the level of this guy, but I find it significant that HIS attitude is the same as mine or Skiprr's - we love us some 1911, but will usually be found carrying a Glock.

[G26ster]

When I was in college I had a '69 XKE Roadster, 4.2 six with Dual Strombergs. Really enjoyed that vehicle for all the reasons listed above, but it was not a particularly reliable car and required an incredible amount of maintenance. But....lord was it worth it!

Bet you wish you still had it, with the prices of some "early" E-Types hitting 300k.

I've owned 3 Jaguars with the 4.2 inline 6 engine (Series III) and one with the V12 (Canadian Series III), but all were fortunately fuel injected. I've driven 2 of them on 3000 mile trips without a hiccup, and 2 were "daily drivers" for my wife and I for about 10 years with only routine maintenance. Older Jag maintenance is not that hard, and not that expensive (except for the inboard rear brake drums on some models which require the axles to be pulled), especially when compared to today's cars where simple parts and computer boxes can cost thousands to replace. I currently own a 1953 MGTD, which requires constant maintenance, but that was true even when the car was brand new. And yes, all had/have a bonnet, boot, wings, windscreens, headlamps, tyres, petrol tanks, and many many spanners were used to keep things right (MG has a "hood" = convertible top). But do it right, and "Bob's your uncle," you're done (except for the "fiddely bits").

[Syntyr]

Kimber tactical pro ii .45 1911

6 hits on steel at 50 yards! Of course it helps if you are instructor zero!

[crazy2medic]

My 1911 has 15rds onboard, two more than a glock and it will feed whatever ammo I give it!

[Dadtodabone]

The idea that M1911 pistols are finicky or somehow unreliable is horse feathers.
The Pistol, Caliber .45, Model of 1911 evolved in a 7 plus year marathon of design updates and field testing that culminated in acceptance trials where a single example fired 6,000 rounds without a failure.
Pistols built to the spec of M1911 or M1911-A1 will feed(from a mil spec magazine),fire, extract and eject 230 grn .45acp fmj ammunition just as well as their predecessor did on that November day 105 years ago. Wet, muddy, covered with sand/dust, fried, frozen, lubed til it drips or as dry as the martini I'm currently enjoying. The record of the M1911 as a fighting pistol is unsurpassed.
From whence then comes this stigma of unreliability? Variance from the formula. From Bullseye shooters to full race guns and all the customs in between. From bullets with profiles and construction never imagined by JMB.
I'm a steel gun guy. All of the pistols I carry were designed by someone whose last name was Browning. They have and will continue to perform as designed. Is the design dated? Absolutely! Is it still the gold standard for a fighting pistol? Absolutely. Can one be purchased from a reputable manufacturer for glock money? Absolutely. Will they reliably cycle modern defensive ammo? Absolutely. I've had zero failures while training with Hornady xtp or the old Winchester Black Talons(which I bought a ton of when all the controversy started up and still have a half ton left). Both of these rounds have an initial profile very similar to fmj and feed like same.
End rant.

[VoiceofReason]

It's finally been settled!