Disarmed by uninformed officer

[WTR]

I can't hire an off duty building inspector to come down and bless off on my family room addition .

Actually, you can. I do it all the time. When ever I test a system like the Fire Alarm system or any system for that matter that requires the shut down of the building, I have to arrange with and pay overtime to the city. They do require a 24 hr. notice and it is dependent on an inspector who will volunteer for the overtime.

[jkurtz]

I can't hire an off duty building inspector to come down and bless off on my family room addition .

Actually, you can. I do it all the time. When ever I test a system like the Fire Alarm system or any system for that matter that requires the shut down of the building, I have to arrange with and pay overtime to the city. They do require a 24 hr. notice and it is dependent on an inspector who will volunteer for the overtime.

In your example it sounds like you are paying the city and the city is providing the inspector, therefore the inspector is "on duty", even though they are working overtime.

[WTR]

I can't hire an off duty building inspector to come down and bless off on my family room addition .

Actually, you can. I do it all the time. When ever I test a system like the Fire Alarm system or any system for that matter that requires the shut down of the building, I have to arrange with and pay overtime to the city. They do require a 24 hr. notice and it is dependent on an inspector who will volunteer for the overtime.

In your example it sounds like you are paying the city and the city is providing the inspector, therefore the inspector is "on duty", even though they are working overtime.

Technically, I suppose you are correct. Just as a LEO would be considered "on duty" if he is acting in the capacity as an Officer. I do pay the the city the exact amount of overtime the inspector earns and he has to agree to work the overtime.

[jkurtz]

I can't hire an off duty building inspector to come down and bless off on my family room addition .

Actually, you can. I do it all the time. When ever I test a system like the Fire Alarm system or any system for that matter that requires the shut down of the building, I have to arrange with and pay overtime to the city. They do require a 24 hr. notice and it is dependent on an inspector who will volunteer for the overtime.

In your example it sounds like you are paying the city and the city is providing the inspector, therefore the inspector is "on duty", even though they are working overtime.

Technically, I suppose you are correct. Just as a LEO would be considered "on duty" if he is acting in the capacity as an Officer. I do pay the the city the exact amount of overtime the inspector earns and he has to agree to work the overtime.

If the liquor store paid the officer directly, then I would say he was not on duty. However, similar to your example, if the liquor store paid the department, which in turn paid the officer, I would say he was on duty.

[WTR]

Lets ask an active or retired LEO their opinion as to how it works.

[jkurtz]

Lets ask an active or retired LEO their opinion as to how it works.

I have, but not on this forum. The restaurant my girlfriend works at often hires the same two LEOs during big events, usually UFC fights and such. The restaurant pays them directly for a specific service. Can they make arrests and enforce laws? Of course they can, but they are being paid specifically to provide security and enforce the rules and policies of the restaurant. They are not there on behalf of the police department that employees them.

[mr1337]

What do you specifically want and expect from the sheriff?

I don't know what I want/expect. I just know that as of right now, I don't have confidence that the situation will be remedied.

I understand, in this litigious society, the reasons why they won't apologize, but to the person who was wronged, an apology from the wrongdoer goes a long ways and sends a message from the wrongdoer to say "lesson learned".

I think it's reasonable to ask that a memo go out to all officers in the jurisdiction explaining the concealed/open carry laws pertaining to where a LTC-holder can and can't carry, in addition to this particular officer getting some one-on-one training on the subject.

That would be a minimum and I feel that it's not an over-the-top request.

[srothstein]

Lets ask an active or retired LEO their opinion as to how it works.

There are some fairly old court cases that tell us exactly how it works. Believe it or not, the officer is off duty working security for the person paying him until he has to take action to stop or handle a crime. The second he does that he is on duty until the duty is fulfilled, then he is off duty again.

This was based on some case where officers got hurt while handling crimes (some of them serious crimes) and the city tried to claim that they did not need to pay the workman's comp claims, the person paying them did. Part of the court's logic was that there was a law requiring the officer to respond to crimes in his jurisdiction, so the law said they were on duty.

Given that logic, I am not sure how it will hold up in court if the officer is working outside his jurisdiction. SAPD used to not allow that (based on these court cases). But if, for example, a Luling PD officer was working security at a store in San Marcos (different city and county), I do not know that the courts would hold the same. The law clearly only requires him to take action in his jurisdiction. BTW, this is why the experienced SAPD officers used to like to take their dinner breaks in one of the restaurants just across the line into one of the suburb cities. You could handle a disturbance without having to arrest and interrupt the meal that long.

[GlassG19]

Since more info has come out, did not clear the weapon nor ask for ID or LTC and handed a loaded weapon to a third person who he has not asked for ID or LTC not to mention his total ignorance of carry statues, I say again this guy has no business wearing a badge. No amount of training is going to fix this kind of stupid. As someone else said, how many times has he already pulled this? He is a tragedy waiting to happen.

The very sad & discomforting thing is he a police officer, & they're a lot more like him that are suppose to be
"Protecting & Serving" the public. Scary.

[C-dub]

Lets ask an active or retired LEO their opinion as to how it works.

There are some fairly old court cases that tell us exactly how it works. Believe it or not, the officer is off duty working security for the person paying him until he has to take action to stop or handle a crime. The second he does that he is on duty until the duty is fulfilled, then he is off duty again.

This was based on some case where officers got hurt while handling crimes (some of them serious crimes) and the city tried to claim that they did not need to pay the workman's comp claims, the person paying them did. Part of the court's logic was that there was a law requiring the officer to respond to crimes in his jurisdiction, so the law said they were on duty.

Given that logic, I am not sure how it will hold up in court if the officer is working outside his jurisdiction. SAPD used to not allow that (based on these court cases). But if, for example, a Luling PD officer was working security at a store in San Marcos (different city and county), I do not know that the courts would hold the same. The law clearly only requires him to take action in his jurisdiction. BTW, this is why the experienced SAPD officers used to like to take their dinner breaks in one of the restaurants just across the line into one of the suburb cities. You could handle a disturbance without having to arrest and interrupt the meal that long.

Didn't that whole jurisdiction thing go out the window many years ago and Texas is their jurisdiction? You would definitely know more than I would, but I thought the only real "jurisdiction" issue any more was a local or state law versus a federal law sort of jurisdiction issue.

[mr surveyor]

I'm a few days late to this "party", but after having read through the entire thread I can see that Canvasback is a very intelligent, informed and very level headed individual (that's what I would expect from a fellow LEPC brother ;)). My suggestion, considering where the situation seems to be stalled at the moment, would be to request from the Sheriff a face to face meeting, privately at the SO, with the Deputy and Sheriff to calmly discuss the events, the laws, basic gun safety, etc., over a cup of coffee, and see where it leads. You may, or may not get that "apology", but I'm sure you will get the proper satisfaction from a gentlemanly discussion.

Just my opinion.


jd

[srothstein]

No, C-dub, it became more of an issue when the legislature added section 14.03(g) to the Code of Criminal Procedure. This limited the authority of officers outside their jurisdiction to stop them from writing tickets. It went all the way to the Court of Criminal Appeals because a officer in the Plano/Richardson area arrested a DWI on the wrong side of the street for his city. For a while, city officers were strictly limited to just their city. Now they can do anything in the county their city is in.

I am fairly confident that most cities would fight trying to pay a workman's comp claim from an off duty job in a different city, based ont eh way the laws are worded still.

[C-dub]

No, C-dub, it became more of an issue when the legislature added section 14.03(g) to the Code of Criminal Procedure. This limited the authority of officers outside their jurisdiction to stop them from writing tickets. It went all the way to the Court of Criminal Appeals because a officer in the Plano/Richardson area arrested a DWI on the wrong side of the street for his city. For a while, city officers were strictly limited to just their city. Now they can do anything in the county their city is in.

I am fairly confident that most cities would fight trying to pay a workman's comp claim from an off duty job in a different city, based ont eh way the laws are worded still.

Okay. So, it's still a county thing. That sounds familiar and seems to go back a ways.

For some reason, I thought someone on this forum had said that an officer in Texas had the right to make an arrest anywhere in the state. Or are we talking about two different things?

[Glockster]

What do you specifically want and expect from the sheriff?

I don't know what I want/expect. I just know that as of right now, I don't have confidence that the situation will be remedied.

I understand, in this litigious society, the reasons why they won't apologize, but to the person who was wronged, an apology from the wrongdoer goes a long ways and sends a message from the wrongdoer to say "lesson learned".

Makes me wonder if it has since happened to anyone else in that liquor store. It is also unfortunate that the store owner is most likely not going to be told that the officer was incorrect.

[NTexCopRetired]

A peace officer, in the State of Texas, who is outside his jurisdiction may arrest, without warrant, a person who commits an offense within the officer's presence or view, if the offense is a felony, a violation of Penal Code - Chapter 42 (DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES) or Penal Code - Chapter 49 (INTOXICATION AND ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE OFFENSES), or a breach of the peace.