ATF Agents at Ft. Worth Gun Range

[govnor]

When the cops showed up a few minutes later one of them saw me with a camera, told me to turn it off

Can they legally tell you to turn off your camera? I don't think that's legal.

[HighVelocity]

They can always say you're interfering with a criminal investigation and through you in cuffs and in the van. Arguing with a team of agents won't result in anything positive for YOU.

[srothstein]

I agree with HV that it is one of those "You might beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" situations.

But in all three cases mentioned, I would strongly recommend calling the agency and filing a complaint. Police have no right to be bullies and should not be allowed to get away with it. If there is more to the story (and I am sure the officers would give a different version), let the IA investigator find it out and determine the truth.

The only way we can get better cops is if the people who get abused file complaints on the bad ones and send letters of commendation when they get a good one who goes beyond what is required.

[flintknapper]

I agree with HV that it is one of those "You might beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" situations.

But in all three cases mentioned, I would strongly recommend calling the agency and filing a complaint. Police have no right to be bullies and should not be allowed to get away with it. If there is more to the story (and I am sure the officers would give a different version), let the IA investigator find it out and determine the truth.

The only way we can get better cops is if the people who get abused file complaints on the bad ones and send letters of commendation when they get a good one who goes beyond what is required.

I couldn't agree more.... (on both accounts).

[govnor]

I agree with HV that it is one of those "You might beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" situations.

But in all three cases mentioned, I would strongly recommend calling the agency and filing a complaint. Police have no right to be bullies and should not be allowed to get away with it. If there is more to the story (and I am sure the officers would give a different version), let the IA investigator find it out and determine the truth.

The only way we can get better cops is if the people who get abused file complaints on the bad ones and send letters of commendation when they get a good one who goes beyond what is required.

I couldn't agree more.... (on both accounts).

I agree too, but trust me on this one: If I had asked a name and badge number in a couple of instances, which a well deserved complaint needed to be filed...I would have taken a ride myself. It just wasn't worth it. I watched people being arrested for asking (politely, I might add) what was going on with their friend (who was being arrested) and stuff like that. This one night in Deep Ellum it was ON with the police. They were in a tizzy. The guy next to me said something to the cop that it wasn't right what they were doing. He was right... and not being rude in any way. The cop looked at him and told him he was next to go to jail if he didn't shut up. "You want to go to jail boy!" Friend says no..."then keep your mouth shut!" True story, as I saw this first hand. That's not the only story either...I have a few others.

So in an instance like that, had I politely asked for a name and badge number, which is perfectly legal, I would have been arrested for *something*. I did have a drink in my hand, wasn't drunk, and was on a legal property behind a fence at a bar, but on the street side. It's legal to drink on the fenced in patios. That probably would have been enough for a PI anyway. I'm a supporter of the police, but I've seen some pretty heinous violations of people's rights.

I've visted New Orleans many times. I lived in Las Vegas for a while. I've partied in many places all over the country. The worst police incidents like this that I've seen have been in Dallas. Maybe that's because I've lived here most of the time, but in the tourist towns the police seem to just ignore you unless you're doing something stupid. In Dallas a lot of times it's like they're just looking for someone to bust for no good reason. My solution: I quit hanging out in Dallas.

[srothstein]

I agree too, but trust me on this one: If I had asked a name and badge number in a couple of instances, which a well deserved complaint needed to be filed...I would have taken a ride myself. It just wasn't worth it. I watched people being arrested for asking (politely, I might add) what was going on with their friend (who was being arrested) and stuff like that. This one night in Deep Ellum it was ON with the police. They were in a tizzy. The guy next to me said something to the cop that it wasn't right what they were doing. He was right... and not being rude in any way. The cop looked at him and told him he was next to go to jail if he didn't shut up. "You want to go to jail boy!" Friend says no..."then keep your mouth shut!" True story, as I saw this first hand. That's not the only story either...I have a few others.

I understand the story and know of similar instances. There was a study done by one news company where they had someone go up to various officers and just ask them how to file a complaint. In about a fair number of the sample, the reporter ended up arrested when he would not give his name. The good news was about half the time, the reporter got the information without any problem. The bad news was it was only half the time.

But, I also wanted to correct a couple bad impressions some people have about the complaint process, one of which you mentioned. You do not need to know any information about the officer other than the department he works for. Just go to the department the next day and tell them when and where it happened and what was wrong. Let the investigators follow up and figure it out. There will be documentation in their records of who it was normally.

Second, don't worry about perjury charges. Some departments try to scare off complaints by posting a notice about false charges being perjury. This is true, but it only applies if you are deliberately lying. If you are mistaken, or the case just cannot be proven, you do not need to worry about the charges.

And finally, you can complain even if you were just a bystander. Some departments will not accept a complaint from anyone other than the actual injured party, but most will take the complaint from any witnesses. Then they will go to the aggrieved party and see if he ants to file the complaint using you as a witness. The best departments will take the complaint from you anyway.

Some departments will not take an anonymous complaint. There is a state law saying the administrator of the agency cannot take action without a signed complaint. Some departments will take the anonymous complaint anyway. If the investigation reveals anything, they will find the proper person to file the complaint.

But we need the public's help to keep the best cops and get rid of the bad ones.

Quis custodiet custodiens? (If I remember my Latin properly)

[Will938]

I agree with HV that it is one of those "You might beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" situations.

But in all three cases mentioned, I would strongly recommend calling the agency and filing a complaint. Police have no right to be bullies and should not be allowed to get away with it. If there is more to the story (and I am sure the officers would give a different version), let the IA investigator find it out and determine the truth.

The only way we can get better cops is if the people who get abused file complaints on the bad ones and send letters of commendation when they get a good one who goes beyond what is required.

I always send a letter to the department of the officer I get into a conflict with no matter how good or bad it was. Note that this is for a conflict, not cops who I have convos or anything like that. I've written three letters that I thought shined a pretty good light on the officer. In two of these three I had received a ticket. I sent four neutral ones which all involved an officer checking me out for whatever reason. And I've sent four negative ones, unfortunately in two of them I didn't have any names to offer. Just time, location, and events. In all of them I considered professionalism, attitude, and personal feelings based on their actions. At the end of each letter I attach the name, agency, and its number of all the other reviews I've done so they can check if they want to see that I am unbiased.

In one of the bad ones I did deserve what I got (half way, I deserved exhibition of acceleration of speed, but I didn't run any sign), but the officer was extremely unprofessional. Cursing and making all sorts of threats. Had he not done that it would of been a good review.

In the one at the cookoff I'll bet they would have a different story, they'd need one to cover their butts...alas I knew neither of their names since I complyed and backed waaay off. Just location, time, agency, and a general description. Yes I understood why he was being so intimidating...to intimidate me into complying with him. Point was that he could of told me to stand to the side and had the same result instead of telling me I was gotta get PI and be behind bars if I didn't back off.

The JV cop that flipped and put me in cuffs? Well I don't know what his side of the story would be, he made those statements and put me in cuffs. Then talked about it being his crime scene. I was involved in the accident, I'm not exactly sure what my role would be in interfering in a police investigation since I'm involved in the accident and I wasn't actively trying anything to prohibit them from doing their jobs. The guy told me to turn my stuff off, I did not want to argue and I was unsure of the legality of me saying no. He put me in cuffs...maybe procedure or something I dunno, they weren't tight or anything, so I'll write that off. Then the speech about his crime scene and how we wouldn't have cameras there. He was semi-courtious, fairly professional, but my personal feelings from what he did and said made me furious.

As for the guy who just told me to beat it or go to jail for PI, I did as he said and beat it. Didn't know his name either, just wrote the local PD and told them when, where, general description, and what happened. Along with the other references.

Speaking of I need to write another review of an accident I was in last year. I'm really not sure where to place this one, I'm not sure how professional the cop was being due to the wording of the law. Maybe you guys can straighten it up for me. Traffic was stopped, two cars yielded to me, this guy didn't want to wait in the stopped traffic so he took off in the suicide lane, he said he was gonna turn in to a gas station about 400 yards from his location. As I edged out in the company van on my LAST day (aaargh) I saw him coming and stopped. He hit the brakes and slide into us, pretty minor in the scheme of things. Being a company van they have to file a report, I felt pretty good about it. I mean, the guy shouldn't of been driving down the center lane while traffic was stopped right? My understanding is that the lane is only to be used to slow down and turn left into a driveway, and if traffic is stopped you can't be slowing down to turn. Apparently wrong, the officer said he had right of way. So he said that he would cite me for failure to yield and the other guy for having no insurance and child endangerment, or he could leave and let us decide it for ourselves. He left it up to my manager, who I guess felt bad for me and kept it between the two of us. The cop let the guy leave back into traffic without insurance and his kid climbing all over the back seat. To me it just seemed like the cop was trying to do the least amount of work possible by making it look like we both had something to lose. So I guess it depends on what the law really means.


Here is my MS Paint interpretation of the crash.

[HankB]

Here's a serious question for the legal types here . . . I really don't know the answer.

Suppose something is happening involving ATF or other law enforcement personnel, and, standing well back from the events, perhaps even on private property, you're filming it.

They then order you to turn off the camera, under threat of arrest.

Could that be construed as tampering with the gathering of evidence? That is, their order and threats are preventing you from gathering evidence?

And if so, would it be reasonable/legal to place a call to some other law enforcement agency? (Assuming they don't all play "cover each other's backsides no matter what" . . . )