Hand on open carried gun

[Ruark]

I've had many panhandlers take a step towards me after I shook my head "no." They were just giving it a 2nd try, not being threatening or aggressive. I could be legally over the top if, in that situation, I exposed my weapon and yelled at him to "STOP!!!" So you would have to be careful about exactly what was going on - his manner, his expression, what he was saying, etc.

Keep follow-up in mind as well. Suppose he hadn't stopped? Suppose he'd kept coming and said "hey, man, I'm really broke..."? Since you had yelled at him to stop and were clearly implying that you would shoot if he didn't, would you have drawn and blown his head off? Suppose he'd said "forget you, man, go ahead and shoot me!" What would you have done next?

"CHL holder kills unarmed homeless man asking for spare change." A prosecutor could have a field day with that, not to mention the Moms. Anyway, be careful out there. You came out of this one OK, but you were walking a very fine line.

[parabelum]

I am currently going through a peace officer academy and I do not think what you did was considered disorderly conduct. I believe that statute was more for the individuals who decide to become irate and wave a gun around with no muzzle discipline or for individuals who draw a weapon illegally when there is no present threat. Seeing as there were two of them I feel you were justified initially. However, depending how far away the second individual was from you when he kept walking towards you I would have probably instructed him one or two more times to "stay back!" before I would have gripped my weapon.

of course, I open carry so they might not have approached me to begin with haha

I agree with this. In my opinion, the guy in the truck that pointed his gun at the motorcyclist is the type of action that violates the disorderly conduct and/or other laws.

I agree 100%. Dude in the truck will be lucky if he doesn't end up with worse then DC charge before everything is said and done.

[Javier730]

I've had many panhandlers take a step towards me after I shook my head "no." They were just giving it a 2nd try, not being threatening or aggressive. I could be legally over the top if, in that situation, I exposed my weapon and yelled at him to "STOP!!!" So you would have to be careful about exactly what was going on - his manner, his expression, what he was saying, etc.

Keep follow-up in mind as well. Suppose he hadn't stopped? Suppose he'd kept coming and said "hey, man, I'm really broke..."? Since you had yelled at him to stop and were clearly implying that you would shoot if he didn't, would you have drawn and blown his head off? Suppose he'd said "forget you, man, go ahead and shoot me!" What would you have done next?

"CHL holder kills unarmed homeless man asking for spare change." A prosecutor could have a field day with that, not to mention the Moms. Anyway, be careful out there. You came out of this one OK, but you were walking a very fine line.

I feel like this could be an easy way to close the distance for someone who intends to rob you.

If someone approaches me to ask for money and I tell them they aren't getting any, they should get the point. If they don't, a loud " STOP!" or "GET BACK!" should get the point across. Sometimes that just isn't enough. Some of these guys urge to get high seems to be too strong and make them real desperate.

We have had this problem in San Antonio for a while. There are panhandlers at almost every convenience store on certain parts of town. I drive all over the city and its very common to see these guys at the same spot. They approach at intersections and drive thrus as well. I have had so many encounters with panhandlers who try and get aggressive.

I bet this was done by one of those asking for"gas money". I don't want those guys near me with their gas cans either.

[jmra]

To the OP, whatever action you decide to take in a situation, do it decidedly and don't "what if" yourself to death (literally). Rely on your training and preparation to guide you in the right course of action. There simply isn't time for "what ifs" when someone is closing ground.
I will add that I try to scan gas stations as I'm pulling up to a pump (or parking lots or whatever) and before I get out of the vehicle. There have been a number of times I didn't like what I saw and moved on to the next station or parking spot.

[K.Mooneyham]

I've had many panhandlers take a step towards me after I shook my head "no." They were just giving it a 2nd try, not being threatening or aggressive. I could be legally over the top if, in that situation, I exposed my weapon and yelled at him to "STOP!!!" So you would have to be careful about exactly what was going on - his manner, his expression, what he was saying, etc.

Keep follow-up in mind as well. Suppose he hadn't stopped? Suppose he'd kept coming and said "hey, man, I'm really broke..."? Since you had yelled at him to stop and were clearly implying that you would shoot if he didn't, would you have drawn and blown his head off? Suppose he'd said "forget you, man, go ahead and shoot me!" What would you have done next?

"CHL holder kills unarmed homeless man asking for spare change." A prosecutor could have a field day with that, not to mention the Moms. Anyway, be careful out there. You came out of this one OK, but you were walking a very fine line.

So, at what point does the hair-splitting stop? When the "homeless guys" are within how many feet of you? Close enough to pull a knife and "bum rush" you? That discussion has been had a few times on this forum, and experienced individuals have various distances in mind. However, within the area of a few gas pumps would likely fit well within most of those distances. I, like many other people, sometimes contemplate what an over-zealous ADA will do if I am ever forced to use deadly force to defend myself or loved ones. However, if that is the overriding thought that runs through ones mind in a potential bad situation, then self-defense with a firearm is effectively rendered moot. For the record, I sincerely hope I am never, ever put into such a terrible situation, and I'd be just the happiest guy in the world to never be in said situation. I consider myself a polite guy when I am out among others, and do my best to not give offense to anyone. But I cannot guess the intentions of someone who keeps coming toward me after I have politely, if firmly, asked them to stop and leave me alone multiple times, nor can I guess if they are high on some likely illegal substance. The fault should lie with the one who is the aggressor.

[Javier730]

http://m.mysanantonio.com/news/local/ar ... 503260.php

Central Substation told officers they have been "tasked with monitoring and clearing the homeless from the City Manager’s residence and surrounding areas."

“To suggest that I have requested any special treatment is flat wrong,” she said. “As city manager, I go out of my way to ensure there is none.

One lieutenant wrote, "Moving the homeless from point A to point B is only going to cause complaints at point B and the cycle continues."

This is why there are so much is some areas, they are probably all being moved from the places the city manager frequents.

The chief of police tried fining people who got caught giving panhandlers money but that was quickly changed.

[LucasMcCain]

Just a quick note. IANAL, but stating that you have a gun does not constitute use of force. There is nothing in the law that addresses verbally stating that you are armed. The explanation my lawyer gave me for this is that you could be lying. Use of force would come into play if you threatened to shoot the guy. Simply going from CC to OC should also be fine. Because OC is now legal, displaying a gun in a belt or shoulder holster can no longer be considered calculated to cause alarm. I'm not sure about putting your hand on your weapon. I would think it would be fine, but I could certainly be wrong.

That said, I think you handled the situation well. I think the steps Excaliber outlined are excellent. I never thought about raising my hand for the cameras. That is a really great idea.

[mikebass78]

Hmmm..Pretty much sounds like brandishing and intimidating to me...

I didn't read the whole post, just first couple posts....

In my entire adulthood, nor early manhood, have I ever felt the need to show someone asking for money my firearm, or felt intimidated by them....

for all these years, a simple, "sorry can help, or NO I don't have it" have worked just fine...

OP was out of line IMO....

Might as well do the same thing to girl scouts in front of every kroger, target or wherever, they seem more pushy than a beggar...

But I will say that hand over open carried weapon, like Officers do, would be fine, they aren't threatening anyone,just protecting their firearm in a crowded QT

But a good question was, what happened if the guy didn't stop coming? Shoot first ask questions later?

Police do it more often nowadays and it gets excused, wonder if civilians will be granted the same leniency, which open carry and all these hotheads with CHL's there's bound to be an incident....

second part was a little off topic..sorry...lol

[Javier730]

To the OP, whatever action you decide to take in a situation, do it decidedly and don't "what if" yourself to death (literally). Rely on your training and preparation to guide you in the right course of action. There simply isn't time for "what ifs" when someone is closing ground.
I will add that I try to scan gas stations as I'm pulling up to a pump (or parking lots or whatever) and before I get out of the vehicle. There have been a number of times I didn't like what I saw and moved on to the next station or parking spot.

I used to try that believe me. That usually ended up with me looking for a while only to have to settle on the next one I saw and being asked anyway. After a while, I was looking for fuel stations with only one panhandler. I live in a neighborhood that was fairly decent but there had been an increase of shady looking people moving close by. Same thing with the area at work.

I've had many panhandlers take a step towards me after I shook my head "no." They were just giving it a 2nd try, not being threatening or aggressive.

I used to give the same headshake and sometimes even apologized for not having any change for them. I no longer do that. I had more negative encounters doing that than by being firm and loud. They usually just got closer for their "2nd try" and it seems they took the fact that they made me obviously uncomfortable and my apology as a sign off weakness. They usually get closer and louder with their begging at that point and i think they know people will give them money just to get them away at that point. I've had some of these guys try and fight me for not paying them for their "2nd try".

No longer. I am loud and firm and that seems to end most encounters. It didn't help on the last one but open carry did.

Like I said, I want to make their approach as uncomfortable as it makes me. The reason I asked about the legality of the placement of hands on an open carried pistol is because eventually these guys will probably get used to seeing people with openly carried pistols and just having them displayed on your hip might not be enough to deter them.

[parabelum]

Hmmm..Pretty much sounds like brandishing and intimidating to me...

I didn't read the whole post, just first couple posts....

In my entire adulthood, nor early manhood, have I ever felt the need to show someone asking for money my firearm, or felt intimidated by them....

for all these years, a simple, "sorry can help, or NO I don't have it" have worked just fine...

OP was out of line IMO....

Might as well do the same thing to girl scouts in front of every kroger, target or wherever, they seem more pushy than a beggar...

But I will say that hand over open carried weapon, like Officers do, would be fine, they aren't threatening anyone,just protecting their firearm in a crowded QT

But a good question was, what happened if the guy didn't stop coming? Shoot first ask questions later?

Police do it more often nowadays and it gets excused, wonder if civilians will be granted the same leniency, which open carry and all these hotheads with CHL's there's bound to be an incident....

second part was a little off topic..sorry...lol

You are kidding , right?

[mikebass78]

You are kidding , right?[/quote]


not at all

[Javier730]

In my entire adulthood, nor early manhood, have I ever felt the need to show someone asking for money my firearm, or felt intimidated by them....

for all these years, a simple, "sorry can help, or NO I don't have it" have worked just fine...

I wish I could say the same. Ive had several instances where these guys asking for money became aggressive. I didn't start out as a person who switch from yellow to orange when being approached by panhandlers. It was the previous negative encounters I had with them that made me always be on yellow like most CHLers and now orange when bring approached by them.

OP was out of line IMO...

Might as well do the same thing to girl scouts in front of every kroger, target or wherever, they seem more pushy than a beggar...

I've never had a girl scout cuss me out and try to fight me in front of my child for refusing to by cookies from them. Now looking forward to it though.

But a good question was, what happened if the guy didn't stop coming? Shoot first ask questions later?

Probably would have gotten to the low and ready position and yelled like a maniac for him to stop.

[Tracker]

This one is graphic...If OC discourages panhandlers from closing the distance then all the better

[mikebass78]

In my entire adulthood, nor early manhood, have I ever felt the need to show someone asking for money my firearm, or felt intimidated by them....

for all these years, a simple, "sorry can help, or NO I don't have it" have worked just fine...

I wish I could say the same. Ive had several instances where these guys asking for money became aggressive. I didn't start out as a person who switch from yellow to orange when being approached by panhandlers. It was the previous negative encounters I had with them that made me always be on yellow like most CHLers and now orange when bring approached by them.

OP was out of line IMO...

Might as well do the same thing to girl scouts in front of every kroger, target or wherever, they seem more pushy than a beggar...

I've never had a girl scout cuss me out and try to fight me in front of my child for refusing to by cookies from them. Now looking forward to it though.

But a good question was, what happened if the guy didn't stop coming? Shoot first ask questions later?

Probably would have gotten to the low and ready position and yelled like a maniac for him to stop.

I understand,every situation and etc is different....

I guess what I'm saying is... if you have a CHL, you've read,read read and read ALOT on forums, and all over of situations like this,I don't think brandishing is what you're instructor or anyone else would have suggested you do.

Keep a safe distance, where you could still draw if needed be, 21 feet or less, I believe is what most of us practice shooting our carry guns at.

It could have been handled much better is all I am saying.

Flashing your firearm, is just asking for trouble.

[SA_Steve]

OK, I've got it now.
Do not say you have a gun, don't show the gun, warning shots - no, never. But if in reasonable fear of death, shoot 'em (but only to 'stop' them, not to hurt them).

I'm too old and slow to deal with a bad guy, and more than one bad guy approaching quickly could easily do me in. I'll send the wife to gas up the car, she's loud enough to scare them off.

And here I thought my LTC was a license to protect myself and helpless citizens, assist cops as their trusted partner in crime control, educate the public and business owners, and prance around Walmart and report about it on the forums.

(easy guys, I'm in a joking mood this morning)