Improper signs and results

[lildave40]

I see alot of posting about improper signs. But can someone answer this for me and before I begin I want to add I am not one for breaking the law. So I will comply to any sign that is up. If the location is improperly posted. What legal troubles can you get into if you enter? Should the improper sign be consider as I have been notified?

[TexasRifleman]

As of January 1, unless it's a place otherwise prohibited, ignoring or not seeing a 30.06 or .07 sign is a Class C misdemeanor with a max $200 fine.

If you are verbally asked to leave and don't it's criminal trespass.

[Lena]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

[TexasRifleman]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

[zoomdfw]

I'm always looking before i enter for any type sign. Especially now after the new sign laws. No matter what the size, or whether it "complies" . If its posted 30.06 /30.07. I have made the choice not to do business at those locations. I have started a new list of business's that want my money! If they post "no guns" I do one or two things. I leave a card with the manager that says "no guns" = "no $$" let them know. I also drop a card in those business card bowls if they have one. Lets them know they lost business when they go through those also.

[Abraham]

Let's see: You'll not walk into a business with a gun-buster sign?

Yes?

No?

Me: As long as they don't have a 30.07 sign, I'm going in CC.

[goose]

I see alot of posting about improper signs. But can someone answer this for me and before I begin I want to add I am not one for breaking the law. So I will comply to any sign that is up. If the location is improperly posted. What legal troubles can you get into if you enter? Should the improper sign be consider as I have been notified?

If it is truly improperly posted, size or location or other, I suspect the worst would be a ride downtown and some legal/lawyering fees.

The grey area would be the degree to which it was invalid. If it is contrasting colors, an inch high, etc, etc but not placed well on the entrances, maybe you have to go to trial if you want to beat the misdemeanor charge (probably an expensive endeavor). I suspect the same for a sign prominently posted but slightly smaller letters or not as contrasting text as you think it should be. Defining letters an inch high is easy. Defining contrasting colors might be a new boat payment for the lawyers on each side. If it is a tiny sign that wasn't very prominent, maybe you don't even have to take the ride.

If you see it, invalid or not, I would encourage you to at a minimum not OC. I carry CC past invalid '06 signs all the time. OCing past an invalid '07 sign or even an invalid gun buster sign is likely to get you presented with a "no guns" verbal notification.

[JALLEN]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

[lildave40]

I see alot of posting about improper signs. But can someone answer this for me and before I begin I want to add I am not one for breaking the law. So I will comply to any sign that is up. If the location is improperly posted. What legal troubles can you get into if you enter? Should the improper sign be consider as I have been notified?

If it is truly improperly posted, size or location or other, I suspect the worst would be a ride downtown and some legal/lawyering fees.

The grey area would be the degree to which it was invalid. If it is contrasting colors, an inch high, etc, etc but not placed well on the entrances, maybe you have to go to trial if you want to beat the misdemeanor charge (probably an expensive endeavor). I suspect the same for a sign prominently posted but slightly smaller letters or not as contrasting text as you think it should be. Defining letters an inch high is easy. Defining contrasting colors might be a new boat payment for the lawyers on each side. If it is a tiny sign that wasn't very prominent, maybe you don't even have to take the ride.

If you see it, invalid or not, I would encourage you to at a minimum not OC. I carry CC past invalid '06 signs all the time. OCing past an invalid '07 sign or even an invalid gun buster sign is likely to get you presented with a "no guns" verbal notification.

Thank you Sir/MAM for your response. You gave me the answer I was looking for.

[TexasRifleman]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.

[JALLEN]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.

Sorry, I am a retired lawyer, not a preacher. I never debate morality. Legal is hard enough.

It is true you can walk right by what you perceive to be an invalid sign, and CC, you might not receive "effective notice." If you are discovered, you may receive "effective notice" in another way, or you may discover that the sign isn't as invalid as you thought. No guts, no glory, as the old saying goes! It all depends.

[goose]

Thank you Sir/MAM for your response. You gave me the answer I was looking for.

For what it is worth, you are very welcome. It is still a bit of a crummy answer because a lot of it depends on the prosecuting attorney. One without an agenda would probably just investigate your intentions and set you walking as appropriate. One with an agenda or political forces pushing them.........all bets are off. Well, and a lot of it also probably depends on the officer(s) that arrive on scene.

[TexasRifleman]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?

Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.

Sorry, I am a retired lawyer, not a preacher. I never debate morality. Legal is hard enough.

It is true you can walk right by what you perceive to be an invalid sign, and CC, you might not receive "effective notice." If you are discovered, you may receive "effective notice" in another way, or you may discover that the sign isn't as invalid as you thought. No guts, no glory, as the old saying goes! It all depends.

Which is precisely why the Legislature dropped it to a Class C, max $200 fine. Gun owners were playing fair, businesses were not.

[goose]

Which is precisely why the Legislature dropped it to a Class C, max $200 fine. Gun owners were playing fair, businesses were not.

What are they doing that is unfair?

Granted, it might be embarrassing for some to get to have a police officer ask them to leave a business in public. The laws of Texas will likely never require every business in the state (with a store front) to expressly declare their position on Open Carry on their doors. "You can only post a valid 30.06 and/or 30.07 sign and or valid TABC sign. Any other signage involving firearms will result in penalties." Not going to happen, IMO. Without that mandate, a business can put just about anything they want on their doors, gunbuster or otherwise.

[mloamiller]

As of January 1, ignoring a properly posted 30.06 or 30.07 sign is a Class C misdemeanor, assuming you leave immediately if you're notified to do so:

30.06/30.07 (d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.

Texas Penal Code states that a Class C misdemeanor (same classification as traffic tickets) is punishable only by a fine:

12.03 (c) Conviction of a Class C misdemeanor does not impose any legal disability or disadvantage.

12.23. CLASS C MISDEMEANOR. An individual adjudged guilty of a Class C misdemeanor shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $500. (30.06/30.07 limit this to $200.)

Unless it's a repeated offense:

12.43 (c) If it is shown on the trial of an offense punishable as a Class C misdemeanor under Section 42.01 or 49.02 that the defendant has been before convicted under either of those sections three times or three times for any combination of those offenses and each prior offense was committed in the 24 months preceding the date of commission of the instant offense, the defendant shall be punished by:
(1) a fine not to exceed $2,000;
(2) confinement in jail for a term not to exceed 180 days; or
(3) both such fine and confinement.

But then there is this possible "gotcha":

12.01 (c) This chapter does not deprive a court of authority conferred by law to forfeit property, dissolve a corporation, suspend or cancel a license or permit, ...

No details are included about what "license" might be impacted, so I guess it's theoretically possible you could loose your LTC, but I guess the same chances would apply to losing your LTC and/or driver's license for speeding.

As noted by other posts, there is no legal penalty for ignoring a non-compliant 30.06/30.07 sign. Just know what the possible consequences are if discovered, especially if it's "close." You could end up arguing the finer points of "contrasting colors" with a LEO and/or judge. However, even with that, jail time would not be likely, just a fine. Personally, I ignore them.

As for the red-circle "gun-busters" signs, those are directed only at criminals.