Removing the penalty for carrying past a 30 06 sign?

[amaly23]

Should there be a penalty for carrying concealed past a valid 30.06 sign, even if you leave immediately when asked to by someone at the property? Right now this is the current case. It is only a class C with a 200 dollar fine but in Texas this will lead to a criminal record if convicted and most crimes cannot be expunged in Texas, including this one. I think it should not be a crime to carry past a valid 30.06 sign unless you fail to leave when asked to. In the majority of states, 26 of them, no gun signs do not have the force of law, unless you fail to leave when asked. In 24 of them they either have the force of law or it is unknown. What are your thoughts?

[MeMelYup]

Should there be a penalty for carrying concealed past a valid 30.06 sign, even if you leave immediately when asked to by someone at the property? Right now this is the current case. It is only a class C with a 200 dollar fine but in Texas this will lead to a criminal record if convicted and most crimes cannot be expunged in Texas, including this one. I think it should not be a crime to carry past a valid 30.06 sign unless you fail to leave when asked to. In the majority of states, 26 of them, no gun signs do not have the force of law, unless you fail to leave when asked. In 24 of them they either have the force of law or it is unknown. What are your thoughts?

[Soccerdad1995]

If they can't bother to fine the Houston zoo and other places that are posting obviously illegal signs, then they should not be threatening to fine CHL holders who run afoul of the law.

[steveincowtown]

It is already proven that LTCers are well behaved and very unlikely to commit a crime at all. I would submit that if a LTCer is asked to leave any business for any reason, they will continue to be well behaved when approached.


Beyond that, in states that have so called Constitutional Carry and signs have no force of law, I can find ZERO reports of a handgun carrier being asked to leave and doing anything except...well leaving.

[fickman]

This should be a top legislative priority for 2017. I posted elsewhere, so please forgive the redundancy of this redundant post.

My preferred objectives for 2017
- Change wording of 30.06 (but leave 30.07 alone)
- Remove penalty for carrying past 30.06
- Expand areas where CHLers can carry to be the same as off duty / retired LEOs
- Repeal restrictive knife laws

[Solaris]

CHL should get same exemption LEO get in 30.05.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I'm absolutely opposed to this proposal and it has no chance of passage. I also do not believe the claim that has been spread throughout the Internet that, in 26 states, property cannot be effectively posted against trespassing.

I support not allowing commercial businesses open to the public to ban concealed carry by an LTC, but as I've noted before, there's no support for that.

Chas.

[fickman]

I support not allowing commercial businesses open to the public to ban concealed carry by an LTC, but as I've noted before, there's no support for that.

Chas.

Thank you for the clarification. When I advocate my support for this idea, I'm really only meaning it in regards to businesses open to the public. Because I work from home, I often forget about other types of private property that might post signs.

It sounds like this is a pie in the sky at this point, but I'll keep dreaming.

I do appreciate the new approach you've outlined in your other post - for us to essentially become ambassadors of concealed carry. I have come to the conclusion that most businesses posting both signs as of January 1 do not see the distinctions between open and concealed carry the way we do.

[Tracker]

Similar to Oklahoma's law?

[Abraham]

Uh-Huh, and I'd like my property taxes to go away too...

[K.Mooneyham]

Similar to Oklahoma's law?

Yep, that's the way it works up there. Businesses can put up any sign they want but no sign has the force of law in regards to licensed carrying of a handgun. They must ask you to leave, then if you do not leave, you can be arrested for trespassing. I work north of the Red with a bunch of veterans in a smaller town, and know a lot of "gun guys". To the best of my knowledge, none of them has ever been asked to leave, though very few open carry into most businesses, either.

[RossA]

Should there be a penalty for carrying concealed past a valid 30.06 sign, even if you leave immediately when asked to by someone at the property? Right now this is the current case. It is only a class C with a 200 dollar fine but in Texas this will lead to a criminal record if convicted and most crimes cannot be expunged in Texas, including this one. I think it should not be a crime to carry past a valid 30.06 sign unless you fail to leave when asked to. In the majority of states, 26 of them, no gun signs do not have the force of law, unless you fail to leave when asked. In 24 of them they either have the force of law or it is unknown. What are your thoughts?

Someone who is more familiar with criminal practice than I am help me out here.
If I am correct, Class C misdemeanors are adjudicated in city municipal courts or Justice of the Peace courts. i didn't think that those were "courts of record" where a conviction would become a part of your criminal record. Traffic convictions become a part of your driving record, but isn't that different from a "criminal record"?

[steveincowtown]

I'm absolutely opposed to this proposal and it has no chance of passage. I also do not believe the claim that has been spread throughout the Internet that, in 26 states, property cannot be effectively posted against trespassing.

I support not allowing commercial businesses open to the public to ban concealed carry by an LTC, but as I've noted before, there's no support for that.

Chas.

May I ask what you are opposed to about signs not having force of law?

I am not sure that property cannot be properly posted no trespassing, but in many states it just cannot be posted "no trespassing just because you may or may not have a object hidden under your shirt." The post below MAY or MAY NOT be up to date, but I pointed this out years ago, prior to our current 30.06 issues.

Signs not having force of law is a wonderful thing. CCer keep their weapon and their privacy, and OCer risk getting asked to leave. I cannot find any story of any CCer or OCer in one of the states below "shooting up the place" because they were asked to leave.

Post the follows in from 2013....

Many states have signs that do not carry the force of law, and I cannot find one case where an owner asking someone to leave resulted in anything else than them leaving.

According to http://www.handgunlaw.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the following states have laws (or don't have laws depending on how you look at it) that make the "No Guns" sign not have any teeth: (IANAL, do your own research if planning to visit these states):

West Virginia

Virginia

Georgia

Florida

Alabama

Kentucky

Indiana

Iowa

South Dakota

Montana

Colorado

Idaho

Washington

Nevada

Of course not all these states have OC, but this list certainly is long enough that if there was a problem, I am sure it would be all over the liberal news media.

Going back to the premise that most folks who would carry an gun on there hip are the good guys (as the bad guys don't want to be noticed), a store owner should be no more afraid of an armed civilian then anyone else. If we perpetuate the idea that store owners could never confront someone with a gun, I think the unintentional affect of this is giving ammo to the left that people should be afraid of law abiding citizens carry guns.

I don't know for a fact that getting rid of 30.06 and moving us into a situation like the above mentioned states would work here in Texas, but it looks like it is working for them.

If we could make this move it sure would make the whole OC vs. CC debate a lot easier. If you are carry concealed, you would literally have nothing to worry about. If you were OC'ing you would open yourself up to being asked to leave and/or a possibly unpleasant interaction with the police.

All the above being said, I have spent to date EXACTLY zero hours working with the Texas Legislature. I am not in the trenches like you, and don't have the experience. My only possible hope is that some point we can use the above to show our Representatives, and our citizens that OC and a modification to 30.06 can work.


Thanks for your help in past sessions, and in advance for the 2013 session.

[MeMelYup]

The reason I voted yes is because there are a lot of signs out and about that do not meet the lawful requirements dictated by 30.06. Also, there are some signs that are valid but not noticeable unless a person is dedicated looking for said sign. We have all observed the white lettered on clear glass signs. Or, the sign is in english and about eight feet away on the other side of the door is the spanish version, or the sign is correct letter size and wording and behind some stuff about eight feet from the door.

I also believe that a buiseness that is open to the public (WalMart, Target, HEB, insurance brokerage, etc.) are different from and should not have the private property privileges as a domicile or residence. In your home you can say no Mexicans or black people allowed in my house, or no white or Mexicans allowed in my house, or no Muslims, or no Catholics, and you are well within your rights. You cannot do this in business for multiple reasons other than it would be poor business practice.

I would also like to see the concealed carry part expanded to everywhere an off duty police officer can carry.

[Vol Texan]

I see how these 'property rights vs 2A rights' conversations get very heated, and I've tried to stay away from them (not always successfully). Here is my attempt to wander into this water, but keep it as civil as possible.

I'm glad we've had 30.06 for the last ~18 years or so. I recognize the impact that it has had, and how it has protected our ability to concealed carry. But as a newcomer (only 5 years now) to the CHL world, I recognize that things can change for the better as well.

One of our newer members explained it well in this post: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81165. In his post, he was responding to a, "You're in Texas and we have 30.06/30.07. Live with it or move" comment. He didn't take the bait, and instead, he answered in a very constructive way. He gave several parallel example:

(In 1993) Sorry, we're in Texas. Texas doesn't allow concealed carry. Live with it or move.
(In 2007) Sorry, we're in Texas. Texas doesn't allow you to stand your ground. You must retreat before using deadly force. Live with it or move.
(In 2015) Sorry, we're in Texas. Texas doesn't allow you to openly carry a handgun or carry a handgun on college campuses. Live with it or move.

All of these rules (save the last one) were changed before I got my CHL. I don't have much knowledge of how much blood, sweat, or tears went into removing them. But I would love to see a new addition to this list:

(In 2017) Sorry, we're in Texas. Texas doesn't allow you to carry past a sign on a business location. Live with it or move.

I DO strongly believe in property rights (my family owns a small business). But comparing a 'No Trespassing" sign with another sign that selective bans some people (but not others) is not really an honest comparison.

In the perfect world that I imagine in my head:

• No Trespassing means nobody comes in at all, and should be considered legal notice.
  
  Using a sign to selectively ban some while not banning others should not hold the weight of law on it.
  
  However, any business owner / manager should have the right to ask anyone to leave for any reason, or no reason. No concealed handguns, no blue undergarments, no hidden tattoos, no Boy Scouts out of uniform...it's all the same to me. If you as me to leave, and I don't, then drop the force of the government upon me.

How would this work with concealed carry? I carry on wherever I can. If (as an example) Walmart trains their greeters to say, "Welcome to Walmart - no guns allowed", then so be it. I cannot carry.

How would this work with open carry? Any sign whatsoever (for example, "Please no open carry in this store" should be warning enough to me that if I do ignore it, I'll be asked to leave right away. (This is the same as it is with a "No shoes, no shirt, no service", or "No smoking", or virtually any other type of sign.)

I do recognize that there may currently be no support in Austin for my suggestion. But maybe the same was said of the other items above in the past. Hopefully this can change, for the better.

Go ahead...flame away. I'm just glad that we have this forum to present different points of view.