obamacare upheld

[VMI77]

2. There is no rationing of care http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statemen ... -can-rati/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The no rationing contention is patently absurd. In spite of what liberals may believe the Federal budget and personal wealth of US citizens is not unlimited. If there is a budget for health care then it will be rationed by definition. Rationing is a given, the method of rationing is the only question.

3.It is NOT a government takeover of healthcare http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... nment-tak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You point to an article that expresses a different opinion, not a fact. The article supports the opinion it expresses by analogies such as the claim that "government regulators tell utilities what they can charge." That's really a half-truth but I'll be gracious and just call it a gross over-simplification. At the moment even if we concede the point and agree that it's not a government takeover, no claim can be made about the future. It is at least the first step of a government takeover.

4. You will not go to jail for not buying health insurance http://www.politifact.com/virginia/stat ... alth-care-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Right now that may be the case, though again, it may change in the future. Personally, I don't think there will be jail time, but you have to wonder why it was proposed in the first place --it clearly communicates the fact that there are people in Congress who would like to put Americans in prison for not buying health insurance, so the authoritarian impulse is there, and I suspect it was only the political climate proponents feared would hinder passage that got it removed, so who knows whether that provision will return in a different political climate. Furthermore, again, the article is dishonest in it's claims when it says there will be no liens or levies placed on property for failure to pay, then goes on to say that the government can collect the tax by deducting it from tax refund checks. MY MONEY IS MY PROPERTY, and that means money the IRS over-collected is MY PROPERTY, so taking it is taking my property.

5. There are and never will be "Death panels" http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ath-panel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the most extravagantly ridiculous contention of all --to claim with a certainty that you know what will happen in the future; not even the link you provide makes that claim --it allows for the possibility of such panels in the future. And the practical reality is that the government will indeed dictate treatment. You can assign whatever name to it you want, but there is a very high probably that government "guidance" will become government diktat, as it does in many other areas of American life. It probably will occur obliquely....for instance, by withholding payment to providers who don't follow government "guidelines," but the effect will be the same.


Edited to Add:

And oh, by the way, I've already heard from our management today that they're now considering eliminating our medical coverage --and my company is run by a liberal, not a conservative.

[74novaman]

Roberts vote is the most disappointing. I can only guess that he was rebelling at being thought of as a predictable conservative vote.

Roberts may have done Conservatism a favor, actually.

He got the court to reject the Commerce Clause argument, thereby letting Congress know there are limits to what they can try to achieve through that. This has been a big issue and a big slippery slope for the last century, and this ruling may have put a huge speed bump, if not a stop sign, in that road.

I understand that argument, but saw this comment about the same thing on another forum:

Look, as a lawyer who routinely deals with the feds, I can tell you exactly how this is going to work. The penalty for 99% of what the federal government mandates is some kind of fine. Now Roberts has said that we'll just consider fines to be taxes, and that there is pretty much no limit on the federal power to tax.

Take, for instance, United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995). This is a famous Supreme Court case which struck down the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 –– the law that made it a crime to have a gun within 1000 feet of a school. That law was struck down under the Commerce Clause. Now all Congress has to do is change the penalty from a penal violation to a "fine," which the courts will then decide is a tax, which now makes the law Constitutional. Beyond Obamacare, this is a massive gaping hole in the checks on the Federal Government. Roberts supposedly "strengthened" the Commerce Clause, but then turns around and essentially makes it irrelevant. So long as the penalty is just a fine, the Commerce Clause operates as no limit to federal power.

Food for thought.

[VMI77]

If someone wants to be a physician, they are going to go to med school. The rules changed in Texas a few years ago that encouraged doctors to come to Texas from other states. Really didn't help get more doctors. Changing the liability exposure didn't help. Changing the tax structure didn't help. Changing the tuition forgiveness rules didn't help. Moral of the story is that doctors go where they want to go and do what they want to do. Costs of paperwork, deadbeat patients, and everything is rolled into the price I pay or the price my insurance pays. If anything good comes from this, it is that everyone will have some sort of coverage which in turn should flatten out the individual costs so that those with insurance will no longer have to be paying for the high percentage of those who don't. Final point, if all legal citizens and residents have some kind of coverage, what happens to the undocumented folks who have no insurance, no social security, no nothing except forged documents. Will this make them stand out in the system even more?

There is no way this will reduce costs....costs HAVE to rise because: 1) insurance providers will have to pay for things they didn't have to pay for in the past; 2) demand will increase well ahead of any increase in supply; and 3) the dead-beats will still be dead-beats, and the rest of us will still be picking up the tab for them.

Final point, if all legal citizens and residents have some kind of coverage, what happens to the undocumented folks who have no insurance, no social security, no nothing except forged documents. Will this make them stand out in the system even more?

Yeah, if by "stand out" you mean that we all will be paying for them too.

[snatchel]

And by the way, just what "opportunity of life" are you talking about that children were lacking that they now receive? You won't be able to provide a single factual example of a child left high and dry by the healthcare system. That's just feel good nonsense.

I'm sorry TAM you crossed a line there implying I'm lying. The "just feel good nonsense" is just you believing that the problem doesn't exist. I have had many first hand experiences with children suffering and sometimes dying for lack of health care. I have been married for many years to a teacher that works in a very large public school district here in Texas. She has taught bilingual classes as well as non esl classes from elementary through high school. She is now an administrator. You are clueless to the number of children without healthcare that have mental issues that can be controlled with medication but the parents can't afford it. The cities and counties have cut their free assistance as budgets have been cut. I have donated numerous times to money raising causes to help a child pay for dialysis, transplants, meds etc. throughout her career. A close friend of mine gave up the teaching profession because she lost a dear student (age 10) over a Christmas holiday vacation because she had treatable leukemia and no insurance or public assistance to help save her. You are living an upper middle class dream TAM. Wake up and realize the real world is much more harsh and unforgiving than the little part of the world you exist in!!! With the number of post you have made on this forum I gave you a lot more credit than I should have. Turn off your computer for a while and take a drive through a poor neighborhood or two. Talk to people. Ask them what their problems are. You might be enlightened at what you might learn! Not everyone has it as good as we do. And it's not because they are lazy or came here illegally. One of my favorite causes is the St. Judes Childrens Hospital. I donate to them every year because they only take patients that have no way to pay for their life saving care. You know, the ones that don't exist in your mind. Google their phone number and give them a call. I'm sure they can give you a few specifics that might help burst your "feel good nonsense" bubble. Good luck to you sir.

I think his main point.. or at least my point is this:

At what point does another person's unfortunate experiences become my responsibility? Middle Class lifestyle or not, neither TAM or anyone else has any legal responsibility to pay for anyone's healthcare. Moral responsibility is another animal altogether, but that is where donations (and I also donate to St. Judes annually--and have been since my first pay check from the military 8 years ago) come in to play.

Again, sorry if this sounds elitist, but I am content to let God deal with my my moral responsibilities, I I don't need Big Government acting as my moral compass. Lack of planning or ability on another's part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

[Slowplay]

While Roberts claims the Obamacare penalty is not called a tax in statute and, as such, cannot be considered for the Anti-Injunction Act - he later flips and says it is a tax for consideration as to the individual mandate.

Here is his twisted logic (emphasis added) as to why the Obamacare penalty is not a penalty in regard to supporting the individual mandate (but it is still not a tax for the Anti-Injuction Act):

In distinguishing penalties from taxes, this Court has explained that “if the concept of penalty means anything,it means punishment for an unlawful act or omission.” United States v. Reorganized CF&I Fabricators of Utah, Inc., 518 U. S. 213, 224 (1996); see also United States v. La Franca, 282 U. S. 568, 572 (1931) (“[A] penalty, as the word is here used, is an exaction imposed by statute as punishment for an unlawful act”). While the individual mandate clearly aims to induce the purchase of health insurance, it need not be read to declare that failing to do so is unlawful. Neither the Act nor any other law attaches negative legal consequences to not buying health insurance, beyond requiring a payment to the IRS. The Government agrees with that reading, confirming that if someone chooses to pay rather than obtain health insurance, they have fully complied with the law.

So, I guess being required to make a payment to the IRS for not buying health insurance is not in any way a form of punshiment. However, if you pay the IRS money for not obtaining health insurance, you'll have fully complied with the law (and not be committing an unlawful act or ommision that would mean the government could impose a punishment)...

Reports that Roberts is not longer able to walk, as his body is contorted to an extreme state, have not been confirmed.

[VMI77]

And by the way, just what "opportunity of life" are you talking about that children were lacking that they now receive? You won't be able to provide a single factual example of a child left high and dry by the healthcare system. That's just feel good nonsense.

I'm sorry TAM you crossed a line there implying I'm lying. The "just feel good nonsense" is just you believing that the problem doesn't exist. I have had many first hand experiences with children suffering and sometimes dying for lack of health care. I have been married for many years to a teacher that works in a very large public school district here in Texas. She has taught bilingual classes as well as non esl classes from elementary through high school. She is now an administrator. You are clueless to the number of children without healthcare that have mental issues that can be controlled with medication but the parents can't afford it. The cities and counties have cut their free assistance as budgets have been cut. I have donated numerous times to money raising causes to help a child pay for dialysis, transplants, meds etc. throughout her career. A close friend of mine gave up the teaching profession because she lost a dear student (age 10) over a Christmas holiday vacation because she had treatable leukemia and no insurance or public assistance to help save her. You are living an upper middle class dream TAM. Wake up and realize the real world is much more harsh and unforgiving than the little part of the world you exist in!!! With the number of post you have made on this forum I gave you a lot more credit than I should have. Turn off your computer for a while and take a drive through a poor neighborhood or two. Talk to people. Ask them what their problems are. You might be enlightened at what you might learn! Not everyone has it as good as we do. And it's not because they are lazy or came here illegally. One of my favorite causes is the St. Judes Childrens Hospital. I donate to them every year because they only take patients that have no way to pay for their life saving care. You know, the ones that don't exist in your mind. Google their phone number and give them a call. I'm sure they can give you a few specifics that might help burst your "feel good nonsense" bubble. Good luck to you sir.

Where did those children come from....the Stork? Did they materialize out of thin air? My wife and I decided we could afford two children though we would very much have liked to have more. But you think I should, by law, have to pay for the children of people who CHOSE to have children they couldn't afford? So, other people should be free to make all the irresponsible decisions they desire and those of us who who act responsibly and forgo some of our desires should have to pay for them? I don't think so.

[VMI77]

Roberts vote is the most disappointing. I can only guess that he was rebelling at being thought of as a predictable conservative vote.

Roberts may have done Conservatism a favor, actually.

He got the court to reject the Commerce Clause argument, thereby letting Congress know there are limits to what they can try to achieve through that. This has been a big issue and a big slippery slope for the last century, and this ruling may have put a huge speed bump, if not a stop sign, in that road.

Roberts also basically told Obama "You can have your health care law, but you can't keep lying about it. A tax is a tax and you're a liar if you call it anything else." And now the American people know that Obama has just stuck them with the largest, most crippling tax ($1.2 trillion over the next 10 years, according to the CBO) in history.

Now, going into the election, Obama has his law. He has his tax hike. He must own it. He must defend it. He must live with it. And the opposition is now galvanized against him to a degree I've not seen before. And Obama must now be judged by the American people by his new taxes.

In the decision, Roberts said this, which I find telling:

“Members of this Court are vested with the authority to interpret the law; we possess neither the expertise nor the prerogative to make policy judgments. Those decisions are entrusted to our nation’s elected leaders, who can be thrown out of office if the people disagree with them. It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices.”

Seriously? It most certainly is their job when those choices violate the Constitution. This is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, NOT a Democracy.

[gdanaher]

Remember, you have to show some understanding, knowledge, and judgement to get a driver or concealed license, but no such requirements are stipulated for people of child bearing age to procreate ....

[G26ster]

And by the way, just what "opportunity of life" are you talking about that children were lacking that they now receive? You won't be able to provide a single factual example of a child left high and dry by the healthcare system. That's just feel good nonsense.

I'm sorry TAM you crossed a line there implying I'm lying. The "just feel good nonsense" is just you believing that the problem doesn't exist. I have had many first hand experiences with children suffering and sometimes dying for lack of health care. I have been married for many years to a teacher that works in a very large public school district here in Texas. She has taught bilingual classes as well as non esl classes from elementary through high school. She is now an administrator. You are clueless to the number of children without healthcare that have mental issues that can be controlled with medication but the parents can't afford it. The cities and counties have cut their free assistance as budgets have been cut. I have donated numerous times to money raising causes to help a child pay for dialysis, transplants, meds etc. throughout her career. A close friend of mine gave up the teaching profession because she lost a dear student (age 10) over a Christmas holiday vacation because she had treatable leukemia and no insurance or public assistance to help save her. You are living an upper middle class dream TAM. Wake up and realize the real world is much more harsh and unforgiving than the little part of the world you exist in!!! With the number of post you have made on this forum I gave you a lot more credit than I should have. Turn off your computer for a while and take a drive through a poor neighborhood or two. Talk to people. Ask them what their problems are. You might be enlightened at what you might learn! Not everyone has it as good as we do. And it's not because they are lazy or came here illegally. One of my favorite causes is the St. Judes Childrens Hospital. I donate to them every year because they only take patients that have no way to pay for their life saving care. You know, the ones that don't exist in your mind. Google their phone number and give them a call. I'm sure they can give you a few specifics that might help burst your "feel good nonsense" bubble. Good luck to you sir.

I too give great amounts to St. Judes, and there should have been no reason for that student to go without care. Someone in the "system" failed them if they did not refer them.

What is the incentive to get out of poverty by succeeding generations, when the gov't will provide what you need? Free housing, free food, free cell phone, free healthcare. Why work for it. If you want to preach to me about poverty, save it. I was raised by a single parent in a 3 room apartment. I slept in the same room as my mother and sister until I was 12 when I got booted out to the front room on fold out bed. We received no gov't assistance at all, and my mother worked every day of her life. I basically raised myself. I first went to work at age 14 as a "soda jerk." We took nothing, but it would have been so easy to lay back and cry "victim" and collect every sort of gov't handout available (far less in those days anyway), and raise another generation of "impoverished" people. Anything I have today, at age 70, I earned. I served my country for 23 years, and raised 2 kids. Both have degrees and one has a PhD. They did it on their own!

If someone in this country needs a helping hand out of poverty, it's there, but it doesn't work if it's too easy to do nothing but live off the gov't and live the street life. Can't find work, no problem, take a two year vacation.

[03Lightningrocks]

The insurance companies have already started jacking up the rates to get ahead of the curve. Some of the mandates are already causing the costs of health care to go up.

Real life, here is what I predict happening. Again... Speaking as one of the many small business owners who will not be able to afford health insurance for our employees. We will be forced to dump them on the system and pay the penalties. Our system is going to be crushed under the weight of all the new government health care recipients. To think taxes are not going to have to increase to cover this ridiculous mandate is naive at best.

Lastly... Since when is it my responsibility to pay for irresponsible behavior from others? Joe ghetto has fifteen kids by a half dozen different welfare mothers and I am somehow morally obligated to foot the bill? Baloney!

[VMI77]

And here I though the people on the site were smart. I cannot believe so many "smart" people are still buying into the lies of the right wing media machine.

This may be a useless exercise, and please don't see this as an attack, but could you enumerate and explain what right wing media lies that the other posters have bought in to? You could even just do the top three.


Such as:

#1> Do you believe this is NOT a tax?

You can choose the rest...


PS...In the future when you choose to call a group stupid, I would double check grammar and spelling before hitting the old submit button.

1. Yes it is a Tax I cannot dispute that.
2. There is no rationing of care http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statemen ... -can-rati/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3.It is NOT a government takeover of healthcare http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... nment-tak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. You will not go to jail for not buying health insurance http://www.politifact.com/virginia/stat ... lth-care-/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5. There are and never will be "Death panels" http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ath-panel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That part in red is bull. Collections of the punishment tax will be via the IRS. What if you refuse to pay it? If there is no jail, then they cannot enforce the fine.......same as for any other tax.

By taking your tax refund or garnishing your wages. Having worked for the IRS it is relatively rare to end up in jail for not paying taxes, it happens but not as often as one thinks. Also I believe there are provisions in the bill that forbid it. But what does it matter what I say as you see me and 54% of americans an your enemy. I guess I ought to go crawl in a hole and die now since I am so un-American. Although something about he who is without sin casting the first stone or not throwing stones if you live in a glass house comes to mind. I call you the enemy of liberty for supporting the president who passed the Patriot Act, which striped far more liberty from us than Obama could ever dream of.

I feel the Obama love but I don't see the logic....Obama loves the Patriot Act, he loves extra-judicial killings, and his administration flouts the law with impunity --if anything, he's GWB on steroids when it come to the suppression of liberty.

[VMI77]

Replace and Repeal is the ONLY answer at this point, forget about what judge decided what...that is done and over with, we have a job to do.

So, only a foolish man would look at our existing system of health delivery and smile at its success. So a Republican Congress repeals the bill. They have to replace it with something, or their replacements are going to have to do something about health care on a national basis. What would be on your wish list for federal or state legislation that would serve to repair, clean up and adjust the traditional system of care delivery?

The government is the primary driver of costs in collusion with the medical industry. Get rid of all FEDERAL involvement in health care and leave it to the states, as called for in the Constitution.

[VMI77]

I have always contributed (monetarily) to the Republican Candidate in Presidential elections.

But this time, I will give until it HURTS! I urge you to do the same.

Replace and Repeal is the ONLY answer at this point, forget about what judge decided what...that is done and over with, we have a job to do. GET OBAMA OUT OF OFFICE, or America will suffer a set back from which it might never recover.

Unfortunately, I have done the same thing in the past and we have to show for it a boat load of Rinos who walk, talk and act like Democrats. Are you willing to bet your life savings that Republicans who get elected to help repeal Obamacare will do so? I'm not.

The polls are showing Obama in the lead in several of the key swing States. Even if he is beaten badly, the chances of reversing the majority in the Senate are very slim at best. Unless and until the Senate is changed, repeal of Obamacare through the legislative process is a pipe dream.

They are already talking about a massive grab of our 401Ks to fund the Social Security system problem that noone except a few Republicans wants to talk about. The ruling today that they can tax anything makes the 401K "tax" almost inevitable. For the record, SCOTUS didn't invent the tax capability, they merely affirmed that Congress has it. I fear SS will be the next drum beat on the Hill and Obamacare will be a distant memory in their minds. Somebody please show me a shred of evidence that says I'm wrong. I would cherish it.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.

Attributed, perhaps erroneously, to Alexander Pytner.

[VMI77]

To coin and old phrase...."America, love it or leave it". Today, as always, I am a proud American. For those of you so upset, there are a number of countries that would be more than happy to consider your immigration application. Americans are the model for the world, I've seen this with my own eyes as I have lived in and traveled extensively around the world for almost 40 years. In my humble opinion, there is no better place that shows democracy at work better than my country.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on this forum that wants health insurance but cannot get it at a price they can afford? Anyone have a chronic and severe health condition for which they are willing to forgo health care with potentially fatal consequences or worse yet your own child in that situation? I see a lot of crying and complaining, but alternative solutions to a very real problem facing millions of Americans is conspicuously absent from these post as well as the Republican leadership. If Republicans plan to run on a platform of repealing the Affordable Healthcare Act, then they better come up with an alternative solution to the problem. Otherwise the majority of Americans will vote to keep them out of office. For the record, I work for a small business. I pay dearly for my health insurance. I feel very fortunate in life and would be willing to contribute a little more of my disposable income for the benefit of those less fortunate to help solve this humanitarian issue. I'm guessing I'm in a very small minority in this forum, but not in the USA.

Umhhh....sorry, this is supposed to be a Republic, NOT a Democracy. And hey, you're free to contribute all your disposable income for the benefit of those less fortunate --no one here will stop you, I promise. What some of us oppose is YOU telling us how much of our income we must be compelled to give to others.

[VMI77]

I'll stand by my statement. Everyone in the federal government should answer to we, the people. We have no recourse whatsoever to ANY action taken by the supreme boobs.

Anygunanywhere

While I sympathize with the sentiment, I don't think that's the answer, nor did the Founders intend it to be....in fact, that's the problem..."the people." The Founders never intended that a bunch of freeloaders with their hands out be able to vote, along with the ignorant, uniformed, and uneducated, and they didn't intend to create a Democracy.