Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

[VMI77]

the children at the school were murdered with two handguns while the AR15 wa still in the trunk of the vehicle

That is incorrect. Every victim was shot multiple times with only .223. The handguns were never used.

You're not at all skeptical about that? We were told for hours and hours that the .223 was in the car and he used two handguns for the murders. How can such a colossal error be explained? The police couldn't tell the difference between spent handgun rounds and spent .223 rounds? The immediate narrative was for an AWB --and the .223 slowly migrated from the car to the murder scene. It seems mighty suspicious to me that the facts evolved to fit the narrative. But then I don't really believe anything in the MSM, especially when they're pushing an agenda so hard.

[VMI77]

I just had a debate with a liberal family mememer about the right to having "Assault" weapons. I learned real quick the mind of a liberal is focused on emotion rather than fact.

I also went through a similar discussion except this person wants all guns abolished. When I presented numerous arguments for the right to bear arms, I was met with accusations of essentially being brain washed by other family members, not having formed my actual opinion on the matter, when that was shot down the person appealed to me to consider what would have happened if my child was one of the ones killed. Lastly I was informed that I did not have enough life experience to adequately comment on the subject and that this person knew many that were victims of gun violence. Not one shred of rational thought was put out, instead a pie in the sky ideal to remove all guns from the country because other countries have done it.

I wish I were making this up.

What countries have removed all guns? Communist China, Japan? Mexico? Ha ha ha. Certainly not any European countries that amount to anything. Just about every western country allows people to own shotguns and bolt action rifles. Some of them also allow silencers....some even require them. Even the UK allows .22 rimfire rifles...with the Ruger 10/22 one of the most popular rifles in the country, and Ireland still allows handguns for self-defense, and people to carry shotguns in public.

[jrmcm]

You're not at all skeptical about that? We were told for hours and hours that the .223 was in the car and he used two handguns for the murders. How can such a colossal error be explained? The police couldn't tell the difference between spent handgun rounds and spent .223 rounds? The immediate narrative was for an AWB --and the .223 slowly migrated from the car to the murder scene. It seems mighty suspicious to me that the facts evolved to fit the narrative. But then I don't really believe anything in the MSM, especially when they're pushing an agenda so hard.

That is the official ME's report. No, I'm not skeptical about that. I am not inclined to believe that a county medical examiner would willingly lie about the details of the deaths of 25 individuals in order to bolster a political agenda that he may or may not agree with.

[VMI77]

You're not at all skeptical about that? We were told for hours and hours that the .223 was in the car and he used two handguns for the murders. How can such a colossal error be explained? The police couldn't tell the difference between spent handgun rounds and spent .223 rounds? The immediate narrative was for an AWB --and the .223 slowly migrated from the car to the murder scene. It seems mighty suspicious to me that the facts evolved to fit the narrative. But then I don't really believe anything in the MSM, especially when they're pushing an agenda so hard.

That is the official ME's report. No, I'm not skeptical about that. I am not inclined to believe that a county medical examiner would willingly lie about the details of the deaths of 25 individuals in order to bolster a political agenda that he may or may not agree with.

Ok, well, I am. Especially one in Connecticut. And anyway, who said anything about "willingly?" All levels of government routinely lie about everything. All the official economic stats are now official lies...especially the inflation and employment stats. These lies are right out in the open too, so you can bet that there is plenty of lying going around with things that are not so open.

[jrmcm]

Ok, well, I am. Especially one in Connecticut. And anyway, who said anything about "willingly?" All levels of government routinely lie about everything. All the official economic stats are now official lies...especially the inflation and employment stats. These lies are right out in the open too, so you can bet that there is plenty of lying going around with things that are not so open.

So let me get this straight... you're more inclined to believe reactionary media reports immediately following the incident, which are notoriously unreliable (in this case, that the handguns were used and not the rifle), versus the medical examiner's autopsy report 4 days later?
I'm really not trying to be inflammatory, but do you have any idea how paranoid and irrational that is?

[Heartland Patriot]

Ok, well, I am. Especially one in Connecticut. And anyway, who said anything about "willingly?" All levels of government routinely lie about everything. All the official economic stats are now official lies...especially the inflation and employment stats. These lies are right out in the open too, so you can bet that there is plenty of lying going around with things that are not so open.

So let me get this straight... you're more inclined to believe reactionary media reports immediately following the incident, which are notoriously unreliable (in this case, that the handguns were used and not the rifle), versus the medical examiner's autopsy report 4 days later?
I'm really not trying to be inflammatory, but do you have any idea how paranoid and irrational that is?

That is my problem with the whole thing. The media are rotten to the core, push whatever info to viewers/readers no matter how lacking in fact it is and they do it with a political agenda. Thus, my signature line here on the forum.

[VMI77]

Ok, well, I am. Especially one in Connecticut. And anyway, who said anything about "willingly?" All levels of government routinely lie about everything. All the official economic stats are now official lies...especially the inflation and employment stats. These lies are right out in the open too, so you can bet that there is plenty of lying going around with things that are not so open.

So let me get this straight... you're more inclined to believe reactionary media reports immediately following the incident, which are notoriously unreliable (in this case, that the handguns were used and not the rifle), versus the medical examiner's autopsy report 4 days later?
I'm really not trying to be inflammatory, but do you have any idea how paranoid and irrational that is?

Or maybe I'm just a lot older than you are or more familiar with the history of government and media. Go ahead and explain things like the unemployment stats in the same context. Is it paranoid and irrational to to realize that these numbers are intentional lies? I don't know what the truth is....the ME report may be true but I no longer just accept something a government official says as true, and I'm particularly skeptical when information changes to align with particular narratives and ideologies that happen to be the same narratives and ideologies of the people exploiting and "reporting" it.

Again, the ME report may be correct, but I note you didn't provide an explanation of how the reports could be so colossally wrong? The police gave the media the information about what guns were used. Someone at the scene had to pass that information to someone interfacing with the media. How could the police at the scene not know the difference between rifle and handgun casings? Do you have a plausible explanation of how such basic information got confused --along with the claim that the rifle was in the car-- because I don't. Wouldn't the rifle have been on or near the body of the killer as well? Is it likely the ME falsified his report? Probably not in a case getting this much attention, but it wouldn't be the first time it has happened either. Have you seen the actual report? Is is possible the media is distorting the report in the same way they distorted information about Zimmerman and always distort and lie about guns?

Yes, initial reports are often incorrect, and they also happen to frequently be incorrect in a way that serves the agenda of the MSM. We won't really be able to get a true picture of what happened until a least a month from now, possibly longer, and then you'll have to dig for it.....you won't find it in the MSM, just like they "forgot" to mention the guy with a CHL at the mall in Oregon.

[DocRhino]

In my opinion the Gun Control Stalemate entails an underlying reality that can't be broken. The framers of the Constitution included the RKBA as a balance for a tyrannical, over-reaching government. I'm confident that the framers would be aghast at the oft-taken position that citizens are, or should be, precluded from having 'military grade' weapons. What they had in mind was that that citizens should have the same weaponry that would be used against them should the government begin to abuse its power. The RKBA wasn't limited to 'one level below police and military': they have muskets, you can have edged weapons; they have automatic weapons, you can have semi-autos...

The anti-gun crowd sees firearms as intrinsically evil implements that are meant to kill. Well, yes, they are. The underlying reasoning was, whether anti-gunners like it or not, that citizens not become subjects of a government that can use its might of arms to enslave them, remove their rights or enact laws or policies that those civilians see as tyrannical; that, at the end of the day, we could shoot and kill the 'revinooers' should it come to that.

Would the anti-gun crowd argue that only moveable type printing presses run by hand one page at a time be the only press that enjoys First Amendment protection? How about the Establishment Clause; could the government establish Scientology as the official religion of the nation since it's new to this century? How about search and seizure? Are all wire-taps legal since the framers didn't foresee phones and email?

The anti-gun crowd seems to easily understand that the rights conferred by the Bill of Rights for the other 9 Amendments (okay, maybe not so much on the 10th) are conceptually driven with an underlying basis that is not changed by technology, time or circumstance. Their emotional mindset regarding those icky, horrible guns overcomes the ability to reason through the conceptualization that MY RKBA has the same philosopical underpinnings as THEIR freedom of speech or THEIR freedom of the press.

Imagine the horror that would be created should we suggest that the freedom of speech should be removed from those with a history of mental health problems; or that convicted felons should lose 4th Amenendment protections since they are proven crimnals; or that freedom of religion isn't important because nobody needs religion.

If we are to Break The Gun Control Stalemate, the anti-gun crowd is going to have to get in touch with what the Constitution means.... yeah, like that's going to happen.

[jrmcm]

Or maybe I'm just a lot older than you are or more familiar with the history of government and media. Go ahead and explain things like the unemployment stats in the same context. Is it paranoid and irrational to to realize that these numbers are intentional lies? I don't know what the truth is....the ME report may be true but I no longer just accept something a government official says as true, and I'm particularly skeptical when information changes to align with particular narratives and ideologies that happen to be the same narratives and ideologies of the people exploiting and "reporting" it.

Again, the ME report may be correct, but I note you didn't provide an explanation of how the reports could be so colossally wrong? The police gave the media the information about what guns were used. Someone at the scene had to pass that information to someone interfacing with the media. How could the police at the scene not know the difference between rifle and handgun casings? Do you have a plausible explanation of how such basic information got confused --along with the claim that the rifle was in the car-- because I don't. Wouldn't the rifle have been on or near the body of the killer as well? Is it likely the ME falsified his report? Probably not in a case getting this much attention, but it wouldn't be the first time it has happened either. Have you seen the actual report? Is is possible the media is distorting the report in the same way they distorted information about Zimmerman and always distort and lie about guns?

Yes, initial reports are often incorrect, and they also happen to frequently be incorrect in a way that serves the agenda of the MSM. We won't really be able to get a true picture of what happened until a least a month from now, possibly longer, and then you'll have to dig for it.....you won't find it in the MSM, just like they "forgot" to mention the guy with a CHL at the mall in Oregon.

I was't aware that I needed to provide an explanation of why initial reports were so colossally wrong. I figured in your advanced age and wisdom, as you were so quick to tout, you would have understood the basic theory of it.

Other notable details of the story that media reports were initially incorrect about:

That the shooter's name was Ryan Lanza
That the shooter's mother was killed at the school.
That there were multiple shooters
That there was a second scene of multiple homicides in New Jersey, tied to the shooter
That the shooter's mother had no connection to the school


So tell me, which media agenda did any of these erroneous reports bolster?

Initial media reports are often wrong for a ton of reasons, the predominant one being the rush to be "first" in reporting, thereby skipping much of the fact checking process. Eyewitness accounts are generally the primary source of this early information, and eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable in no small part because of the reconstructive memory process.
Reporting of unemployment statistics has absolutely no relevance to this incident. Stop bringing it up.

You have completely undermined your argument by intimating that incorrect media reports are deliberate as to further an agenda. Pretty ironic, seeing as the initial media report of the weapon type(s) actually used in the assault is what I came in here to refute.

[VMI77]

In my opinion the Gun Control Stalemate entails an underlying reality that can't be broken. The framers of the Constitution included the RKBA as a balance for a tyrannical, over-reaching government. I'm confident that the framers would be aghast at the oft-taken position that citizens are, or should be, precluded from having 'military grade' weapons. What they had in mind was that that citizens should have the same weaponry that would be used against them should the government begin to abuse its power. The RKBA wasn't limited to 'one level below police and military': they have muskets, you can have edged weapons; they have automatic weapons, you can have semi-autos...

They also had cannons...and I'm not arguing we should have artillery pieces though that argument could probably be made....just pointing out the the expected lethality at the time went beyond mere musketry. Also, by lib logic, we should be able to carry around swords, and black powder pistols and muskets with, NO restrictions, since that was the practice when the amendment was written. But we know that these lib claims aren't intended to be real arguments....their emoticons whose sole purpose is to influence ignorant people to support the liberal anti-gun position.

[VMI77]

Or maybe I'm just a lot older than you are or more familiar with the history of government and media. Go ahead and explain things like the unemployment stats in the same context. Is it paranoid and irrational to to realize that these numbers are intentional lies? I don't know what the truth is....the ME report may be true but I no longer just accept something a government official says as true, and I'm particularly skeptical when information changes to align with particular narratives and ideologies that happen to be the same narratives and ideologies of the people exploiting and "reporting" it.

Again, the ME report may be correct, but I note you didn't provide an explanation of how the reports could be so colossally wrong? The police gave the media the information about what guns were used. Someone at the scene had to pass that information to someone interfacing with the media. How could the police at the scene not know the difference between rifle and handgun casings? Do you have a plausible explanation of how such basic information got confused --along with the claim that the rifle was in the car-- because I don't. Wouldn't the rifle have been on or near the body of the killer as well? Is it likely the ME falsified his report? Probably not in a case getting this much attention, but it wouldn't be the first time it has happened either. Have you seen the actual report? Is is possible the media is distorting the report in the same way they distorted information about Zimmerman and always distort and lie about guns?

Yes, initial reports are often incorrect, and they also happen to frequently be incorrect in a way that serves the agenda of the MSM. We won't really be able to get a true picture of what happened until a least a month from now, possibly longer, and then you'll have to dig for it.....you won't find it in the MSM, just like they "forgot" to mention the guy with a CHL at the mall in Oregon.

I was't aware that I needed to provide an explanation of why initial reports were so colossally wrong. I figured in your advanced age and wisdom, as you were so quick to tout, you would have understood the basic theory of it.

Other notable details of the story that media reports were initially incorrect about:

That the shooter's name was Ryan Lanza
That the shooter's mother was killed at the school.
That there were multiple shooters
That there was a second scene of multiple homicides in New Jersey, tied to the shooter
That the shooter's mother had no connection to the school


So tell me, which media agenda did any of these erroneous reports bolster?

Initial media reports are often wrong for a ton of reasons, the predominant one being the rush to be "first" in reporting, thereby skipping much of the fact checking process. Eyewitness accounts are generally the primary source of this early information, and eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable in no small part because of the reconstructive memory process.
Reporting of unemployment statistics has absolutely no relevance to this incident. Stop bringing it up.

You have completely undermined your argument by intimating that incorrect media reports are deliberate as to further an agenda. Pretty ironic, seeing as the initial media report of the weapon type(s) actually used in the assault is what I came in here to refute.

Sorry, 1) don't understand....thought you might be able to provide a plausible explanation but apparently you can't; and 2) don't take orders from you and I won't stop bringing up official stats as relevant, because they are. The official stats are lies that are parroted uncritically by the press. Their existence demonstrates not only that the government lies, and creates certain lies openly via a process that involves many people both inside and outside the government, but that the media facilitates the lies and doesn't call them on it. So, there is absolutely nothing incredible about the notion that the government and the pressitutes lie to further their agenda.

Your apparent argument that certain examples of what the media misreported do not further an agenda is a strawman: FAIL. I never claimed that every little detail of what the media reports is in furtherance of an agenda. I referenced what was reported about Zimmerman as an example and which very obviously did serve an agenda. In this particular case, as I also pointed out, we don't know enough yet to see the whole picture. I never claimed that the media doesn't make honest errors or that all their errors are agenda driven, so again with your strawman argument: FAIL. Examples of what has been reported that does serve their agenda:

the killer used high capacity magazines
the killer used an "assault rifle"
the killer had hundreds of rounds of ammunition
the killer's mother was a "doomsday" prepper
the killer's mother was a gun collector and had "a lot" of guns
the killer's mother took the killer to a gun range and taught him how to shoot
the killer's mother thought the world was about to end

The first three claims are either true or false and can be proven or dismissed based on physical evidence. The last four claims are all hearsay, or as in the case of taking her son to the gun range, meant to suggest that his mother, the gun nut, is responsible for his killing spree because she taught him how to shoot. She's not around to explain her beliefs so the press can't know what she actually believed....the claims about her are intended to make her look like a nut, and hence, to paint people with several guns who make preparations for an unpredictable future, and teach their children to shoot, as nuts.

[rubio]

the children at the school were murdered with two handguns while the AR15 wa still in the trunk of the vehicle

That is incorrect. Every victim was shot multiple times with only .223. The handguns were never used.

You're not at all skeptical about that? We were told for hours and hours that the .223 was in the car and he used two handguns for the murders. How can such a colossal error be explained?

The explanation is the emperor's new story is better for the laws they want to pass first.

[XDgal]

I, for one, am very skeptical of th ME's report. On Friday evening, after I got home and was watching the news coverage, they showed the footage shot earlier from their news copter. Over and over it showed a police officer removing the "assalt rifle" from the trunk of the shooter's car. I guess he shot all those kids, ran out and put it in the trunk, and then ran back inside and shot himself. Bet you won't find that footage anywhere now!

[hpcatx]

BOTTOM LINE: I am NOT giving mine up, no matter what the law says. They are literally going to have to try and take them, and yes, I WILL fire on an American who is treasonous enough to try and enforce something like that. I've had a good life, and nobody lives forever, and my eternal destiny is a settled matter. Maybe if enough old coots go down fighting, enough young coots will stand up to carry the fight forward. I'm deadly serious about this.

Well said, as always, TAM. I can honestly say, that while I share your sentiment, I'm not confident that I wouldn't cave if the heat were turned up and the authorities came knocking. I would like to think I could hold my resolve, but my convictions have become more malleable when thinking about the long term care of our infant. The world post such enforcement events is certainly not a place in which I would like my son to live, though I don't know if having and knowing his father -- and being able to raise him to recognize the tyranny around him -- wouldn't win out. Maybe this line of reasoning is just cowerdly, but I suspect many ardent RKBA/2Aers would be faced with this dilemma. I pray that I may share in your strength.

[hpcatx]

I, for one, am very skeptical of th ME's report. On Friday evening, after I got home and was watching the news coverage, they showed the footage shot earlier from their news copter. Over and over it showed a police officer removing the "assalt rifle" from the trunk of the shooter's car. I guess he shot all those kids, ran out and put it in the trunk, and then ran back inside and shot himself. Bet you won't find that footage anywhere now!

The best I could find with a quick search...

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