Stand Your Ground in Danger

[gdanaher]

Novaman,
You unfortunately continue to add your own agenda. Please do not add language or words to my comments that imply they are different from what they are, This is how politicians attempt to sway the uncleansed. Your argumentative nature, attempting to nitpick a single word into something it isn't, is unbecoming and likely to result in the higher powers banning you from the board. Please attempt to stay focused on the topic.

[RockingRook]

Novaman,
You unfortunately continue to add your own agenda. Please do not add language or words to my comments that imply they are different from what they are, This is how politicians attempt to sway the uncleansed. Your argumentative nature, attempting to nitpick a single word into something it isn't, is unbecoming and likely to result in the higher powers banning you from the board. Please attempt to stay focused on the topic.

Been following this and I like your comments and thinking.

Chuck

[74novaman]

Gdanaher and rockinrook, I'm going to hand out a bit off free advice, then back out of this thread.

On a discussion forum, when someone disagrees with an idea you had or statement you have made, it is not a personal attack. If you treat every disagreement someone has with you personally, you won't enjoy posting very much.

In both of your cases, I have posted ideas counter to your own, not personal attcks.

By rocking rook, that was responded to by calling me as much of a threat to the 2nd amendment as Zimmerman, then telling me to grow up.

In gdanahers case, a counter view point was responded to by attacking me for being "biased" instead of countering an idea with another idea.

Gentleman, if you continue to take offense at people having different ideas than your own, and insult members instead of discuss ideas, I fear it will be your stays on the boards that may be tragically cut short.

In closing, it's the Internet. Dong take things so personally, and realize there is a vast difference between disagreeing with someones views....and name calling.

[tommyg]

I don't know what really happened I was not there. I worked in a reform school for over 5 years.
I know from experience that teenagers can and do commit violent crimes.

It was not Zimmerman place to chase down an intruder ( if he really was an intruder) in a gated area.
Zimmerman obviously had a cell phone since he called the police. He should have stayed out of it and watched
from a safe distance until the police showed up then let the police do their job.
Remember that watch means watch does not mean get involved.


We don’t need to repeal self defense laws over this since repeal will only protect criminals. Zimmerman
should be investigated and he needs to answer for his actions. The courts need to handle this
not the slanted news media and not a bunch of protesters who don’t know what really happened.

DUMP THE PROPAGANDA AND STICK TO THE FACTS

[gdanaher]

In gdanahers case, a counter view point was responded to by attacking me for being "biased" instead of countering an idea with another idea.

This is far too close to the Josef Goebbels school of twisting the truth to be healthy. You failed to respond to the relevant content and went about attempting to split hairs over minutia. There has been a national tragedy in Florida. It looks bad and reflects poorly on anyone who values their 2A rights. It is far more important to focus time and energy on what that legislation in Florida did or did not allow for, and why the local police acted as they did.

[Keith B]

OK folks, keep your discussions civil and do NOT make personal attacks against another forum member. Follow the rules.

[Jusster]

Oh boy....I hope this isn't becoming an epidemic. Georgia to view its Stand Your Ground law.

http://pba.org/post/georgias-stand-your ... a-shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jusster

[gdanaher]

Oh boy....I hope this isn't becoming an epidemic. Georgia to view its Stand Your Ground law.

Royce West effectively said the same thing about Texas law yesterday at a meeting. Another reason we need to play nice with the general concept of self protection.

[Heartland Patriot]

In gdanahers case, a counter view point was responded to by attacking me for being "biased" instead of countering an idea with another idea.

This is far too close to the Josef Goebbels school of twisting the truth to be healthy. You failed to respond to the relevant content and went about attempting to split hairs over minutia. There has been a national tragedy in Florida. It looks bad and reflects poorly on anyone who values their 2A rights. It is far more important to focus time and energy on what that legislation in Florida did or did not allow for, and why the local police acted as they did.

And there is the effect of propaganda...it has NOT been a "national tragedy", except as the media has made it such. The cold fact is that a teenager got shot to death in Florida. That was a tragedy in and of itself on a personal level to that teen's family/friends...but unfortunately, people get shot around this nation on a daily basis, for many reasons. Some of those reasons are justifiable and some are not...but does that make every one of those a "national tragedy"? Only if you believe like the Brady Campaign, or others who have a similar mindset. The Second Amendment is NOT about fine filigree shotguns kept at a country club for the occasional celebrity meet under the watchful eye of the government...it is not about politicians having armed bodyguards...it is not even really about protecting ourselves from criminals who wish to do us harm, though that is a fine benefit of being armed and the one that CHL was intended to support. The point of the 2nd Amendment is to have an armed citizenry that can respond to tyranny of whatever source. If the rights of the individual are curtailed due to the poor decisions of a handful of folks, then the individual citizens are being punished in a collective fashion for the crimes of those few...instead of those few getting the punishment they may have earned themselves. Which is what should happen in this case. If you despise the way this was handled by the PD in that town, call them or write them...but don't act like the rest of us and the rest of the nation needs to have essentially good laws rewritten, in a manner which only benefits the bad guys, in the end.

[Kabong30]

^ Thank you.

[WildBill]

...it has NOT been a "national tragedy", except as the media has made it such.

^ Thank you.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't know if this changes anything, but I just saw this on drudgereport:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/s ... n-03232012
Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

Zimmerman probably still shouldn't have pursued and harassed Martin, but according to at least one eye witness, Zimmerman was getting his butt handed to him just before he shot Martin. I might have likely fired in that situation too. If this witness is reliable—and apparently it is his testimony which kept the police from arresting Zimmerman—then Zimmerman's main mistake was in being overly aggressive in his neighborhood watch. But I have so far resisted accusing Zimmerman of murder......and I am cynically tired of seeing teenaged thugs lamented as sweet little angels what never did nuttin' wrong......so I'm going to refrain from further commenting about Zimmerman's murderous lust or Martin's sterling character. The fact is, none of us really knows what happened there.

[The Annoyed Man]

"When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

I hope the truth does come out and it bites certain politicians squarely on their fourth point of contact in November.

And with Al Sharpton down there stirring the pot, it is Tawana Brawley all over again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Bra ... llegations

Tawana Brawley (born 1972) is an African-American woman from Wappingers Falls, New York. In 1987, at the age of 15, she received national media attention in the United States for accusing six white men, some of whom were police officers, of having raped her. The accusations soon earned her notoriety, which was inflamed by Brawley's advisers (including the Reverend Al Sharpton and attorneys Alton H. Maddox and C. Vernon Mason), the statements of various public officials, and intense media attention. After hearing evidence, a grand jury concluded in October 1988 that Brawley had not been the victim of a forcible sexual assault and that she herself may have created the appearance of an attack. The New York prosecutor whom Brawley had accused as one of her alleged assailants successfully sued Brawley and her three advisers for defamation.

{snip}

The case exposed deep mistrust in the black community about winning justice from legal institutions. It also showed how some participants attempted to manipulate the justice system before a full investigation could take place.

{snip}

On May 21, 1990, Alton H. Maddox, Jr. was indefinitely suspended by the Appellate Division of the State Supreme Court in Brooklyn after failing to appear before a disciplinary hearing to answer allegations regarding his conduct in the Brawley case.[26]

In 1998, Pagones was awarded $345,000 (he sought $395 million) through a lawsuit for defamation of character that he had brought against Sharpton, Maddox and Mason. The jury found Sharpton liable for making seven defamatory statements about Pagones, Maddox for two and Mason for one. The jury deadlocked on four of the 22 statements over which Pagones had sued, and it found eight statements to be non-defamatory.[27] In a later interview, Pagones said the turmoil by the accusations of Brawley and her advisers had cost him his first marriage and much personal grief.[28]

Pagones had also sued Brawley. She defaulted by not appearing at the trial, and the judge ordered her to pay him damages of $185,000. As of 2003, none of the award had been paid.[29] The $65,000 judgment levied against Al Sharpton was paid for him in 2001 by supporters, including renowned attorney Johnnie Cochran plus former businessman Earl G. Graves, Jr.

Al Sharpton is a race-baiter, muckraker, and shyster. There is a strong possibility (based on Sharpton's involvement in the Tawana Brawley story and others) that Zimmerman is getting railroaded by Sharpton in one of his classic "no justice, no peace" actions for which he is notorious. It may well be that Zimmerman is not only innocent, but that some of you have assisted Al Sharpton in trashing Zimmerman's name and reputation on the Internet. May I suggest that, until he goes before a grand jury and/or judge and jury and we learn the final outcome, those of you have been doing this might want to reserve your judgements in the interest of preserving your own reputations.

Alternatively, you can jump on and ride the Sharpton train now, whatever fresh Hades it leads us all through, and deal with your shame later. It's up to you.

[gringo pistolero]

and I am cynically tired of seeing teenaged thugs lamented as sweet little angels what never did nuttin' wrong

Amen. We know Martin was kicked out of school and that's why he was 250 miles away from home. Some sources say it was five days, and some say it was 10 days, but nobody disputes it was at least a week of classes. Miami isn't Mayberry and I don't know what it takes to get suspended for a week or two in Miami, but I bet it requires something more serious than texting during class. This little detail got buried pretty quick.

The original photo of Martin showed him in a hoodie like the one he was wearing that night, but the more recent family photos look like he's about 14 in those photos. The recent photos are probably very different than the 6'3" hooded individual Zimmerman saw and reported to police.

Meanwhile, the news continues to show Zimmerman's mug shot from 5+ years ago. Never mind that he wasn't convicted. They keep showing that mugshot, although some of the recent news pictures look like they lightened the appearance of his skin color. That seems very strange.

I'm not disputing it looks like Zimmerman was overzealous in his neighborhood watch activities. I'm not disputing that zeal probably contributed to the events of that night. However, I also can't dispute the claims that he called the Sanford PD dozens of times to report suspicious people or activity, and none of those calls ended with a shooting.

I think if the whole truth ever comes out, there will be many high profile people who will be proven 99% wrong, but will never apologize or admit they rushed to judgement by ignoring eyewitness accounts and physical evidence.

[Kythas]

Some new info has come out which corroborates Zimmerman's claim of self defense. Apparently, there's a witness who saw Trayvon Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him. That account is consistent with the evidence police on the scene reported, which was that Zimmerman was bloody and bruised on his face and head and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains on it, consistent with a struggle on the ground. This is why he wasn't arrested at the scene.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/s ... n-03232012