Father Kills Daughter

[Beiruty]

Do they believe that Paradise will last forever? (Because a person is only a virgin once).

Correct.

[74novaman]

So if it's such a sin to kill the innocent, how do they convince so many to martyr themselves by killing innocents? Are Jews not innocent? Americans?

[UpTheIrons]

So if it's such a sin to kill the innocent, how do they convince so many to martyr themselves by killing innocents? Are Jews not innocent? Americans?

I think it goes right along with those of other religions who kill for the wrong reasons. The "extremist Christians" who kill abortion doctors are the only examples I can think of right off at this late hour. Sure, they are few and far between, but they use a warped sense of Scripture to do what they think is "righteous."

It's the same way with Islam's extremists, if I understand correctly what I've read before.

To go any farther would probably push my response over the line into discussing religion instead of informing about religion, and I don't want to lock the thread without Beiruty having a chance to clarify if he'd like.

[Beiruty]

Extremists will justify their acts regardless what is on the books and what scholars have said. I think their justification is an asemetric responsee and just a political presure to get recognized. Of course, this can be a weak deterrence, in their eyes and may have worked sometimes to silence the moderate majority.

[Oldgringo]

So if it's such a sin to kill the innocent, how do they convince so many to martyr themselves by killing innocents? Are Jews not innocent? Americans?

I think it goes right along with those of other religions who kill for the wrong reasons. The "extremist Christians" who kill abortion doctors are the only examples I can think of right off at this late hour. Sure, they are few and far between, but they use a warped sense of Scripture to do what they think is "righteous."

It's the same way with Islam's extremists, if I understand correctly what I've read before.

To go any farther would probably push my response over the line into discussing religion instead of informing about religion, and I don't want to lock the thread without Beiruty having a chance to clarify if he'd like.

I agree with the Rev. Terrorism of ALL flavors should be loudly denounced by all who oppose the terrorist's cowardly acts. Any terrorists who survive their heinous deeds should be publicly executed after a very speedy trial.

[RPB]

Just a non-judgmental observation:
killing innocents does not equate to killing the killers of innocents.
Various situations/examples of Killers of the killers of innocents are perceived differently, depending on social and situational context.

Ex. Killers of the killers of innocents
Jury sentencing mass murderer to death.
Person shooting a body bomber prior to that person's entering a building
and the "extremist" abortion doctor murderer trying to "save lives"

none of those are the same as the original body bomber killer of innocents.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=40680" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not promoting any of the above, just noting an observation.

[Oldgringo]

Here we go again. Will it ever end?

[jimlongley]

Who would want 1 virgin, let alone 72?

Amen, got tired of them in high school.

[Kythas]

No, the cases you mentioned are mass murder and a criminal behavior, this is what is called terrorism. Under Islamic law, it is forbidden to harm, Mame, or kill non-combatants, such as civilians, children, animals even intentionally destroying property and farms and vegetation is forbidden. Even surrendered enemy combatants (POW) are protected and should be well treated.

How does this correlate to the Quran telling Muslims to kill the unbelievers where ever they may be found?

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

And if POWs are to be protected and well treated, why did Mohammad himself behead 600-900 Jewish prisoners after the Battle of Medina? Mohammad is considered "al-insan al-kamil" (the perfect man) and all Muslim morality comes from his actions. Therefore, the actions of the perfect man (Mohammad) beheading prisoners explains the Muslim penchant for doing so, as Mohammad's actions provide a moral precedent for Muslims to do the same.

Sira, p463-4: Then they {the tribe of Quraiza} surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of Bani al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy bin Akhtab and Kab bin Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the Apostle they asked Kab what he thought would be done with them. He replied, "Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!" This went on until the Apostle made an end of them.

After Mohammad conquered Mecca, he outlined the future of Islam, which Muslims today still heed:

Sunnah, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177; Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour {of the Last Judgment} will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Sunnah, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24; Narrated Ibn Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

I believe bin Laden and the so-called "extremists" are practicing Islam EXACTLY as Mohammad intended it to be practiced. The true extremists are those Muslims who are attempting to drag Islam into the 21st Century, and allow Islam to peaceably exist with all the other religions of the world. Time will tell which of those factions wins.

[Beiruty]

Did Prophet Muhammad order 900 Jews killed ?



From Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland,
(1976), pp. 100-107.


IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT at the advent of Islam there were three Jewish tribes who lived in Yathrib (later Medina), as well as other Jewish settlements further to the north, the most important of which were Khaybar and Fadak. It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam. However, as soon as these tribes realized that Islam was being firmly established and gaining power, they adopted an actively hostile attitude, and the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.

The biographers of the Prophet, followed by later historians, tell us that Banu Qaynuqa.,1 and later Banu al-Nadir,2 provoked the Muslims, were besieged, and in turn agreed to surrender and were allowed to depart, taking with them all their transportable possessions. Later on Khaybar3 and Fadak4 were evacuated. According to Ibn Ishaq in the Sira,5 the third of the Jewish tribes, Banu Qurayza, sided with the Qura****es and their allies, who made an unsuccessful attack on Medina in an attempt to destroy Islam. This, the most serious challenge to Islam, failed, and the Banu Qurayza were in turn besieged by the Prophet. Like Banu al-Nadir, in time they surrendered, but unlike the Banu al-Nadir, they were subjected to the arbitration of Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza. He ruled that the grown-up males should be put to death and the women and children subjected to slavery. Consequentiy, trenches were dug in the market-place in Medina, and the men of Qurayza were brought out in groups and their necks were struck.6 Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900.

On examination, details of the story can he challenged. It can be demonstrated that the assertion that 600 or 800 or 9007 men of Banu Qurayza were put to death in cold blood can not be true; that it is a later invention; and that it has its source in Jewish traditions. Indeed the source of the details in earlier Jewish history can be pointed out with surprising accuracy.

More and reset of the article: http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=2255" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Full article: http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-my ... killed.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you note above, the short story is that after the war battle settled, the caputred went to to trial and the captured were asked to select a imapartial judge and they
selected Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza. He ruled that the grown-up males should be put to death. Their numbers was in doubt and even the whole story is questioned by other hisotrians. Muhaditeen have discounted some of the story as mentioned in the article. As indicated in the article, named leaders were executed and rest is in doubt.

[Beiruty]

Ater Mekka was conquered there was no blood shed, and guess what happened to all thousands captured?
Were they killed? NO
Were they tortured? NO
Were they made slaves? NO

They were all set FREE, even before they converted to Islam. All FREE!

short quote from wiki:

On the eve of the conquest, Abu Sufyan adopted Islam. When asked by Muhammad, he conceded that the Meccan gods had proved powerless and that there was indeed "no god but Allah", the first part of the Islamic confession of faith. In turn, Muhammad declared Abu Sufyan's house a sanctuary:
"He Who enters the house of Abu Sufyan will be safe, He who lays down arms will be safe, He who locks his door will be safe".[4] He also declared:
Allah has made Mecca a sanctuary since the day He created the Heavens and the Earth, and it will remain a sanctuary by virtue of the sanctity Allah has bestowed on it until the Day of Resurrection. It (fighting in it) was not made lawful to anyone before me. Nor will it be made lawful to anyone after me, and it was not made lawful for me except for a short period of time. Its animals (that can be hunted) should not be chased, nor should its trees be cut, nor its vegetation or grass uprooted, nor its Luqata (most things) picked up except by one who makes a public announcement about it.'[5] Then along with his companions Muhammad visited the Kaaba. The idols were broken and the so-called gods were destroyed. Thereupon Muhammad recited the following verse from the Qur'an:"Say the Truth is come and falsehood gone; Verily falsehood is ever vanishing."[6]
The people assembled at the Kaaba, and Muhammad delivered the following address:
"There is no God but Allah. He has no associate. He has made good His promise that He held to his bondman and helped him and defeated all the confederates. Bear in mind that every claim of privilege, whether that of blood or property is abolished except that of the custody of the Ka'aba and of supplying water to the pilgrims. Bear in mind that for any one who is slain the blood money is a hundred camels. People of Quraish, surely God has abolished from you all pride of the time of ignorance and all pride in your ancestry, because all men are descended from Adam, and Adam was made of clay." Then Muhammad turning to the people said:
"O Quraish, what do you think of the treatment that I should accord you?"
And they said, "Mercy, O Prophet of Allah. We expect nothing but good from you."
Thereupon Muhammad declared: "I speak to you in the same words as Joseph spoke to his brothers. This day there is no reproof against you; Go your way, for you are free."[7] Muhammad's prestige grew after the surrender of the Meccans. Emissaries from all over Arabia came to Medina to accept him.
Ten people were ordered to be killed:[1], Ikrimah ibn Abi-Jahl, Abdullah ibn Saad ibn Abi Sarh, Habbar bin Aswad, Miqyas Subabah Laythi, Huwairath bin Nuqayd, Abdullah Hilal and four women who had been guilty of murder or other offences or had sparked off the war and disrupted the peace[1].
However, they were not all killed; Ikrimah lived to adopt Islam and fight in future battles among Muslim ranks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Beiruty]

How does this correlate to the Quran telling Muslims to kill the unbelievers where ever they may be found?

Limited to battlefield and combatants at time of war. That is traditional warfare.

[Oldgringo]

How does this correlate to the Quran telling Muslims to kill the unbelievers where ever they may be found?

Limited to battlefield and combatants at time of war. That is traditional warfare.

The World Trade Centers were a battlefield and the some 3,000 killed in and aound them on 9/11/2001 were all combatants, eh?