nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
^^^^^This^^^^
I'm still waiting to here from CCPD with the final disposition of my NCAD case but sitting down and having a friendly conversation with the applicable laws in hand got the IA officer to agree with me. I'm positive their procedures and enforcement will change with regards to govt buildings and LTC.
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
My wife got a "rife to jail" for a class C. She has a nasty habit of throwing her cigarette butts out the window of her car. A cop saw her and pulled her over for a class c littering charge. BUT then Informed her that she is being charged for a felony, attempted ARSON! After she was in the car he told her that the cigarette butt hit his car and could have burned him. He was going to charge her with Arson, distruction of city property and attempted assault of a police officer! No, this is not true, she got a letter in the mail not to litter and a Don't mess with Texas trashbag. But thanks for reading what COULD have likely happened.
"Jump in there sport, get it done and we'll all sing your praises." -Chas
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
My wife got a "rife to jail" for a class C. She has a nasty habit of throwing her cigarette butts out the window of her car. A cop saw her and pulled her over for a class c littering charge. BUT then Informed her that she is being charged for a felony, attempted ARSON! After she was in the car he told her that the cigarette butt hit his car and could have burned him. He was going to charge her with Arson, distruction of city property and attempted assault of a police officer! No, this is not true, she got a letter in the mail not to litter and a Don't mess with Texas trashbag. But thanks for reading what COULD have likely happened.
In my LE career I've made about 10 arrests on class C offences. One less than 2 weeks ago. It's not that uncommon.
2/26-Mailed paper app and packet.
5/20-Plastic in hand.
83 days mailbox to mailbox.
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
That would open them and their agency up to a law suit. I don't see a mature officer wanting that problem and I also don't see being arrested in a Class C unless he is just a huge knucklehead.
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
If you "take the ride" for what is clearly not an offense, you will have a better chance should you choose to bring a civil action against the city. It's different than speeding, which IS illegal. I'm not sure why Ft. Worth is putting their officers in this position, but unless they're wanding/frisking people, what's going to happen? Actually what they could do is arrest everyone with a handgun at all and let the judge sort it out. Having a LTC, or being a cop, is only a Defense to Prosecution against 46.02, whereas in 30.06/7:
It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which
the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity
Because this exact language is not used in 46.15 it has been ruled that all the exceptions are Defenses. So go ahead, be a cop, or get a LTC...you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride, right?
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
My wife got a "rife to jail" for a class C. She has a nasty habit of throwing her cigarette butts out the window of her car. A cop saw her and pulled her over for a class c littering charge. BUT then Informed her that she is being charged for a felony, attempted ARSON! After she was in the car he told her that the cigarette butt hit his car and could have burned him. He was going to charge her with Arson, distruction of city property and attempted assault of a police officer! No, this is not true, she got a letter in the mail not to litter and a Don't mess with Texas trashbag. But thanks for reading what COULD have likely happened.
In my LE career I've made about 10 arrests on class C offences. One less than 2 weeks ago. It's not that uncommon.
Did you make them for offenses that were not an offense?
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
That would open them and their agency up to a law suit. I don't see a mature officer wanting that problem and I also don't see being arrested in a Class C unless he is just a huge knucklehead.
The average Joe citizen isn't going to file a lawsuit due to the time and expense. I'm sure if any LTC holder walkes past security after being told they cannot carry into the FT Worth gun show I predict they will be arrested. I personally wouldn't try it if I was a citizen attending.
2/26-Mailed paper app and packet.
5/20-Plastic in hand.
83 days mailbox to mailbox.
nightmare69 wrote:Be careful with the attitude of, "it's only a class C so you probably won't take a ride." Depending on the officer and taking into consideration it's a gun related offense, I'll predict there is at least a fair chance of going downtown.
If any officers are enforcing unenforceable signs on city property, take it up with the dept, city attorney, or even the Sheriff. The officers are not attorneys and will enforce whatever regulations they are told by those paying them the overtime to be there.
My wife got a "rife to jail" for a class C. She has a nasty habit of throwing her cigarette butts out the window of her car. A cop saw her and pulled her over for a class c littering charge. BUT then Informed her that she is being charged for a felony, attempted ARSON! After she was in the car he told her that the cigarette butt hit his car and could have burned him. He was going to charge her with Arson, distruction of city property and attempted assault of a police officer! No, this is not true, she got a letter in the mail not to litter and a Don't mess with Texas trashbag. But thanks for reading what COULD have likely happened.
In my LE career I've made about 10 arrests on class C offences. One less than 2 weeks ago. It's not that uncommon.
Did you make them for offenses that were not an offense?
What are you talking about? Every arrest has to be a legitimate charge out of the penal code and all my arrests were upheld. You can't just make up charges if that is what your hinting at. Anyways, that's the last time I respond to your inmature comments. Adiós.
I'll mail you your grammar police badge this week.
2/26-Mailed paper app and packet.
5/20-Plastic in hand.
83 days mailbox to mailbox.
nightmare69 wrote:
...
What are you talking about? Every arrest has to be a legitimate charge out of the penal code and all my arrests were upheld. You can't just make up charges if that is what your hinting at. Anyways, that's the last time I respond to your inmature comments. Adiós.
I'll mail you your grammar police badge this week.
You were the one warning everyone not to be casual about walking past the Ft Worth police while armed at a gun show on City property. Well, that isn't a class C offense. So are you in the habit of arresting people for made up offenses, or not? And what does your county sheriff say after the 10th class C you bring in for booking? Do they even book them, knowing that a class C is a "no jail offense". I mean I guess I could see PI, or Disorderly, but don't the Sheriff's Deputies get tired of your wasting their time? And is there even bond for a class C How long will they hold them?
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
crazy2medic wrote:Am I the only one that sees this as some kinda challenge?
I was going to go to Ft Worth gun show a couple weeks ago to find out, but never got around to it.
So next gun show we meet and try and beat their system?
I am actually willing to do this and I'm fine posting about it here on a public forum. My guess on what will happen is: We will walk past the entrance concealed, pay for our ticket and go into the show. There are enough loopholes in 411.209 that if I tried to open carry I would undoubtedly be denied entrance without any consequences to the City. I've already been through this at Cowboys Stadium. On the other hand, I have carried (concealed) into one of my county annex buildings that was posted (wrongly) right past the Deputy Constable on duty and into the County Clerk's (not court clerk) office...
I wrote the original post for this topic 7 months ago and I stand by what I said. In fact, I now agree with some other posters that 411.209 as interpreted by General Paxton has caused MORE signs to go up on public property.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
crazy2medic wrote:Am I the only one that sees this as some kinda challenge?
I was going to go to Ft Worth gun show a couple weeks ago to find out, but never got around to it.
So next gun show we meet and try and beat their system?
I am actually willing to do this and I'm fine posting about it here on a public forum. My guess on what will happen is: We will walk past the entrance concealed, pay for our ticket and go into the show. There are enough loopholes in 411.209 that if I tried to open carry I would undoubtedly be denied entrance without any consequences to the City. I've already been through this at Cowboys Stadium. On the other hand, I have carried (concealed) into one of my county annex buildings that was posted (wrongly) right past the Deputy Constable on duty and into the County Clerk's (not court clerk) office...
I wrote the original post for this topic 7 months ago and I stand by what I said. In fact, I now agree with some other posters that 411.209 as interpreted by General Paxton has caused MORE signs to go up on public property.
Scott, I know you know the law, but if you really do go through with this, please get some sort of legal representation before going through with it. I would go prepaid because I think it would be much cheaper and would really be a slam dunk for pretty much anyone who managed to pass the bar exam.
And my question: how do you get police to notice you once you get in concealed? Go to bathroom and switch to open carry? Could the company that runs the show ask you to leave because they can deny service to near everyone, and if you refused it would be just regular old trespassing? If they claimed it had nothing to do with your handgun?
CHL Holder since 10/08
NRA Certified Instructor
Former LTC Instructor
locke_n_load wrote:
...
Scott, I know you know the law, but if you really do go through with this, please get some sort of legal representation before going through with it. I would go prepaid because I think it would be much cheaper and would really be a slam dunk for pretty much anyone who managed to pass the bar exam.
And my question: how do you get police to notice you once you get in concealed? Go to bathroom and switch to open carry? Could the company that runs the show ask you to leave because they can deny service to near everyone, and if you refused it would be just regular old trespassing? If they claimed it had nothing to do with your handgun?
...
If I really wanted to push the issue, I'd open carry right up to the entrance, but I think the loophole that they would use is that the show promoters are prohibiting me from carrying "loaded, and not zip tied". I don't believe they could get me on a criminal 30.05 trespass, because the reason for exclusion would be that I was carrying a handgun, and I have a LTC. However, in KP-108 AG Paxton seems to suggest that the right of civil trespass enforcement may still be available to the lessee (show promoter). So they would simply bar my entry.
My intent is really just to be able to carry where it is legal regardless of improperly posted restrictions, rather than become the proverbial "test case" via openly protesting the invalid restriction. So therefore if I manage to conceal and carry into the show, I will simply go about my business (armed). Somebody needs to push the point someday if we want to make progress, but I am not financially/legally prepared to do so, unless some sort of legal foundation wanted to support me.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
locke_n_load wrote:
...
Scott, I know you know the law, but if you really do go through with this, please get some sort of legal representation before going through with it. I would go prepaid because I think it would be much cheaper and would really be a slam dunk for pretty much anyone who managed to pass the bar exam.
And my question: how do you get police to notice you once you get in concealed? Go to bathroom and switch to open carry? Could the company that runs the show ask you to leave because they can deny service to near everyone, and if you refused it would be just regular old trespassing? If they claimed it had nothing to do with your handgun?
...
If I really wanted to push the issue, I'd open carry right up to the entrance, but I think the loophole that they would use is that the show promoters are prohibiting me from carrying "loaded, and not zip tied". I don't believe they could get me on a criminal 30.05 trespass, because the reason for exclusion would be that I was carrying a handgun, and I have a LTC. However, in KP-108 AG Paxton seems to suggest that the right of civil trespass enforcement may still be available to the lessee (show promoter). So they would simply bar my entry.
My intent is really just to be able to carry where it is legal regardless of improperly posted restrictions, rather than become the proverbial "test case" via openly protesting the invalid restriction. So therefore if I manage to conceal and carry into the show, I will simply go about my business (armed). Somebody needs to push the point someday if we want to make progress, but I am not financially/legally prepared to do so, unless some sort of legal foundation wanted to support me.
I don't think that was his intent. What he stated was that he was unable to prosecute a vendor for displaying a 30.06 sign on government property because they are not government.
