Breath Taking No Knock Atrocity

[nightmare69]

Most of our swat guys are either still in, or were in the military and we all are on the same page.

Therein lies the problem! As others have said, Law Enforcement is not the military, and the use of high risk military tactics against civilians is wrong.

There have been far too many cases of wrong addresses, innocent people killed or wounded and LEO's shot by their own adrenalin hyped fellow officers to cavalierly blow it off as "collateral damage". It's a high risk procedure that could usually be avoided, but has become overused because of the proliferation of SWAT/SRT teams in departments that only have them because "everyone else does", and the team members want to use all their toys and play "special ops"...even in situations where it's uncalled for. "When you're holding a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail".

I see your point but what is the solution? Ban all vets from being police? Take away all MRAPS and military style weapons and gear? If the California cops would of had rifles and better gear and training of today I doubt the Hollywood shootout would have spilled near the amount of blue and citizens blood.

[talltex]

I've worn the badge and uniform and bad guys were no less dangerous than they are now. A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

I know retired LEOs who used to carry a .38 wheel gun with only two speed loaders and never wore a vest. The weapons and armor has changed a lot along with the mentality of the citizens towards police. We are a para military organization and use military style tactics. I know most citizens will disagree with that but it's true.

NO...you are only a para-military organization in that you wear uniforms and and have assigned ranks. You are being taught and told by your trainers that you are entitled to use military tactics. That is something that has only come about in the last 20 years when the federal government started passing out military equipment to police departments. It's NOT the mentality of the average citizen that has changed toward the police...it's the attitude of the average police officer that has changed toward the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve!

[carlson1]

I know retired LEOs who used to carry a .38 wheel gun with only two speed loaders and never wore a vest. The weapons and armor has changed a lot along with the mentality of the citizens towards police. We are a para military organization and use military style tactics. I know most citizens will disagree with that but it's true. Even the NRA's own Dom Roso has a video about the military and police similarities.

In before police departments are not para military or anything close.

Police should not be para-military. They are supposed to be "peace officers." Where did that change to being a keeper of people rather than keeper of the peace? Police forget and seems in your short career you have forgotten also that you are a "public servant." This seems to be Obama's attitude.

This sure wasn't the attitude in the 80's and 90's. Some police are alienating the very people that will back them up when needed - Joe Citizen.

I also know that all police do not have your same warped way of thinking. My brother who has been police for 34 years and the last 20 of those in Administration does not posses it. My youngest son who has been police for 8 years and is now a sergeant in East Texas also does not poses this warped thinking.

I now understand why there are police arresting police in great numbers now.

[nightmare69]

Everything I own and use on duty the average law adbiding citizen can own. I bought my patrol rifle at Academy. We do have an MRAP but I don't believe there is a law against citizens owning armored vehicles or having one armored.

People used to have respect for law enforcement, most still do but the old timers didn't have Cop Block or OCT around to deal with. A lot has changed and all the retired LEO say it's gotten worse over the past decaded.

[talltex]

Most of our swat guys are either still in, or were in the military and we all are on the same page.

Therein lies the problem! As others have said, Law Enforcement is not the military, and the use of high risk military tactics against civilians is wrong.

There have been far too many cases of wrong addresses, innocent people killed or wounded and LEO's shot by their own adrenalin hyped fellow officers to cavalierly blow it off as "collateral damage". It's a high risk procedure that could usually be avoided, but has become overused because of the proliferation of SWAT/SRT teams in departments that only have them because "everyone else does", and the team members want to use all their toys and play "special ops"...even in situations where it's uncalled for. "When you're holding a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail".

I see your point but what is the solution? Ban all vets from being police? Take away all MRAPS and military style weapons and gear? If the California cops would of had rifles and better gear and training of today I doubt the Hollywood shootout would have spilled near the amount of blue and citizens blood.

That was one incident... that initiated the whole SWAT concept. There has been much more blood spilled (and it's all the same color regardless if it comes from a cop or citizen) on botched raids than there was in LA after that bank robbery.

[jason812]

I now understand why there are police arresting police in great numbers now.

That is because it's estimated that the average person commits 3.felonies a day due to the vast amount of laws on the books and the police in general enforce these laws.

How does the US have the largest percentage of people in prison but we are supposed to be the most free country in the world to live in? Sounds to me with so many laws on the books of what we can't do, we are not that free.

Without the militarization of the police, the government would have to find a new way to take your money to keep you safe.

[talltex]

I can say my mentality has really changed since getting into LE. Dealing with the scum of society everyday and seeing the pure evil man is capable of would change anyone.

What college campus are you working on ???

[Papa_Tiger]

People used to have respect for law enforcement, most still do but the old timers didn't have Cop Block or OCT around to deal with. A lot has changed and all the retired LEO say it's gotten worse over the past decaded.

Have you ever wondered if what has changed wasn't initiated by the citizens, but by the government? The attitude out of Washington and in many state capitols is "they serve us" not "we serve them". The same can be said for many (not all) police departments. There has been a significant attitude shift on the part of many police officers from being a public servant to being law enforcement. See the difference? Public (for and of the people) vs. law (authority). Servant (helping and protecting the community) vs. enforcement (power, force, threat, violence).

Don't get me wrong, I have met very many good police officers who were first and foremost public servants, but I have also met my fair share of those who power trip behind the badge and force of law.

[nightmare69]

People used to have respect for law enforcement, most still do but the old timers didn't have Cop Block or OCT around to deal with. A lot has changed and all the retired LEO say it's gotten worse over the past decaded.

Have you ever wondered if what has changed wasn't initiated by the citizens, but by the government? The attitude out of Washington and in many state capitols is "they serve us" not "we serve them". The same can be said for many (not all) police departments. There has been a significant attitude shift on the part of many police officers from being a public servant to being law enforcement. See the difference? Public (for and of the people) vs. law (authority). Servant (helping and protecting the community) vs. enforcement (power, force, threat, violence).

Don't get me wrong, I have met very many good police officers who were first and foremost public servants, but I have also met my fair share of those who power trip behind the badge and force of law.

The town I work in ranks in the top 20 for worst crime in Texas. The university I work for is located in the worst part of town. Sadly, gunshots are all to common. Thankfully it's a rainy night tonight.

I'm also a reserve deputy and been with SOs most of my LE career. Working as a jail deputy was the best move I made as I learned how to de-escalate 95% of issues using only words. Just to put things in perspective, I'm currently helping another officer on a agg sexual assault that happened about a week ago. Just because we are a university doesn't mean we don't have our share of crime.

[baldeagle]

I've worn the badge and uniform and bad guys were no less dangerous than they are now. A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

I know retired LEOs who used to carry a .38 wheel gun with only two speed loaders and never wore a vest. The weapons and armor has changed a lot along with the mentality of the citizens towards police. We are a para military organization and use military style tactics. I know most citizens will disagree with that but it's true.

NO...you are only a para-military organization in that you wear uniforms and and have assigned ranks. You are being taught and told by your trainers that you are entitled to use military tactics. That is something that has only come about in the last 20 years when the federal government started passing out military equipment to police departments. It's NOT the mentality of the average citizen that has changed toward the police...it's the attitude of the average police officer that has changed toward the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve!

It's not true that it started 20 years ago. It started almost almost 50 years ago.. Los Angeles Police Chief Daryl Gates created S.W.A.T in 1967. http://www.policemag.com/channel/swat/a ... f-law.aspx Ever since then the police departments have become more and more militarized, using maneuvers like stacking and military tactics like flash bang grenades before entry. That was long before the federal government decided to start donating military equipment to them.

[Javier730]

I can say my mentality has really changed since getting into LE. Dealing with the scum of society everyday and seeing the pure evil man is capable of would change anyone.

What college campus are you working on ???

[SA_Steve]

at least get the address right

[mojo84]

I'm also a reserve deputy and been with SOs most of my LE career.

All 1 1/2 years of it. Seems like you have been in on an awful lot of high risk operations many officers spend several years gaining experience before the get to experience the high risk adrenalin pumping operations. I know some officers that have been on the job for years and they've never been part of a no knock entry team. It's amazing the experiences you've had in your short 18 month career as a campus and unpaid part time reserve deputy. I think I can honestly say I've never heard of a reserve deputy being involved in a no knock entry to serve an arrest warrant.

[nightmare69]

I'm also a reserve deputy and been with SOs most of my LE career.

All 1 1/2 years of it. Seems like you have been in on an awful lot of high risk operations many officers spend several years gaining experience before the get to experience the high risk adrenalin pumping operations. I know some officers that have been on the job for years and they've never been part of a no knock entry team. It's amazing the experiences you've had in your short 18 month career as a campus and unpaid part time reserve deputy. I think I can honestly say I've never heard of a reserve deputy being involved in a no knock entry to serve an arrest warrant.

My first job was working for a small SO 13 man Dept. We didn't have swat and had to supply all own gear. We had to execute all our county warrants. This is when I got introduced to a few no knocks. That county was literally the Wild West. This is all I'm going to say as this thread is not about my personal career.

[twomillenium]

If you ever had to stand fast outside a known drug dealer's home not knowing what you may face going in them your perception on no knocks may changed. It's real easy to give your opinion while in the comfort of your home office.

The reason LE uses no knocks is because they work well with minimal casualties on both sides. The ones wanting to forbid no knocks should educate themselves by strapping on body armor, grabbing a rifle, and get into formation. You give the bad guys time to grab weapons and aim down the fatial funnel there would be more blue blood spilled.

It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used. Maybe a few changes could be implemented such as gathering better Intel before getting the warrant, but having to stand there and knock waiting for the person to open the door is suicide. Some of the scum we served warrants on would rather slit your throat them look at you.

I understand everyone else's opinion and I used to feel the same until I actually had to go in.

It seems that in less than two years some folks can get 30 years of experience. Maybe they tend to confuse what they read with what they experience.
It also seems as if more of the new LEO's do not understand that the authority they have been given by the citizens is in order for them to serve the citizen not to be boss of the citizen!