Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

Discussion of other state's CHL's & reciprocity

Moderators: carlson1, Keith B


Topic author
kbarrick
Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:46 pm
Location: Brownwood, TX

Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#1

Post by kbarrick »

An interesting item from Florida:
(From World News Daily)


Fla. court OKs force against retreating attackers
By BILL KACZOR
Associated Press Writer
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida's "stand-your-ground" law allows the use of deadly force for self-protection even if an attacker or intruder is in retreat, an appellate court said Wednesday.

A three-judge panel of the 1st District Court of Appeal issued that explanation for last month releasing Jimmy Hair from jail, where he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.

Hair, 28, was charged with fatally shooting Charles Harper, 26. Harper had forced his way into a car in which Hair was a passenger and then tussled with him. The car was parked outside a Tallahassee nightclub where Harper earlier had argued with the driver.

Sandi Copes, a spokeswoman for Attorney General Bill McCollum, said no decision had yet been made on whether to ask for a rehearing or possibly appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. She declined further comment.

A trial judge had refused to grant Hair "stand-your-ground" immunity due to conflicting testimony on whether Harper was being pulled out of the car by a friend when he was shot, but the appellate court said that didn't matter.

"The statute makes no exception from immunity when the victim is in retreat," the panel wrote in an unsigned, unanimous opinion.

surprise_i'm_armed
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 4620
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:16 am
Location: Shady Shores, Denton County. On the shores of Lake Lewisville. John Wayne filmed here.

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#2

Post by surprise_i'm_armed »

Does anyone know where Texas law is on this kind of situation?

We are allowed to pursue and shoot at people who have committed a felony in the night.

Are Texas CHL's able to shoot someone who has assaulted them in order to effect the capture
of the bad guy? Even if he has none of our property in his possession?

SIA
N. Texas LTC's hold 3 breakfasts each month. All are 800 AM. OC is fine.
2nd Saturdays: Rudy's BBQ, N. Dallas Pkwy, N.bound, N. of Main St., Frisco.
3rd Saturdays: Golden Corral, 465 E. I-20, Collins St exit, Arlington.
4th Saturdays: Sunny St. Cafe, off I-20, Exit 415, Mikus Rd, Willow Park.
User avatar

boomerang
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 2629
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#3

Post by boomerang »

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Does anyone know where Texas law is on this kind of situation?
Are they still a threat?
surprise_i'm_armed wrote:We are allowed to pursue and shoot at people who have committed a felony in the night.
Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the felony.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... 009.00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"
User avatar

TheArmedFarmer
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Grapevine

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#4

Post by TheArmedFarmer »

he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
Maybe there's a detail I'm missing here, but I wonder what happened to this man's right to a "speedy" trial?
Life member: NRA, THSC, HSLDA.

psehorne
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#5

Post by psehorne »

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Does anyone know where Texas law is on this kind of situation?
...
Are Texas CHL's able to shoot someone who has assaulted them in order to effect the capture
of the bad guy? Even if he has none of our property in his possession?
SIA
It appears that use of deadly force is only allowed if the perp is fleeing with your property in his possession during nighttime. This is covered by P.C. 9.42
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the otheh imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Paul
Paul

Springfield XD(M )9
Springfield XDsc9
Kel Tec PF9


09/16/2009: USPS Delivered Application, 11:52 am, AUSTIN
10/09/2009: Received Pin # in the mail, status 'processing application'
12/08/2009: Application Completed - license issued or certificate active
12/14/2009: Plastic in hand
User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 8128
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#6

Post by ELB »

TheArmedFarmer wrote:
he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
Maybe there's a detail I'm missing here, but I wonder what happened to this man's right to a "speedy" trial?
I don't know anything about this case, but it seems that many delays are induced from the defense side, for various reasons legal and tactical. When you are charged, it should mean that the DA thinks he has enough evidence to convict you. Do you have enough evidence to counter that? May need a delay while you scrape up some. After you find a lawyer, and he has time to study the case, etc etc. Going straight to trial may not be in your best interests... And maybe the DA's witnesses will wander off, evidence get lost, the state criminal lab gets investigated...

I would also suppose that once you ask for a delay (ergo forfeiting your right to a speedy trial) you are at the mercy of everyone else's calendar; the judge, the DA, your own lawyer.
USAF 1982-2005
____________
User avatar

TheArmedFarmer
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Grapevine

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#7

Post by TheArmedFarmer »

ELB, that's a good answer. I received a PM giving a similar answer, and it makes good sense. My question is answered and I'm satisfied.
Life member: NRA, THSC, HSLDA.
User avatar

Keith B
Moderator
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 18502
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#8

Post by Keith B »

TheArmedFarmer wrote:
he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
Maybe there's a detail I'm missing here, but I wonder what happened to this man's right to a "speedy" trial?
It is very common for one or the other side to ask for a postponement in the trial. I have some friends who have been waiting over a year now a case of 5 counts of negligent vehicular homicide and the trial has been rescheduled 5 times at the request of the defense attorney. Needless to say this has been very hard on the family to have it drug out so long. They just want to get through this so they can get some closure on the tragedy. :banghead:

To keep this on topic, some states have a law that allows a non-LEO to shoot a fleeing felon (i.e. one that has just committed a felony act, not a convicted felon. Although that might be a good law in some instances. :evil2: )
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member

Psalm 82:3-4

psehorne
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#9

Post by psehorne »

psehorne wrote:
It appears that use of deadly force is only allowed if the perp is fleeing with your property in his possession during nighttime. This is covered by P.C. 9.42

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the otheh imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
After re-reading 9.42, I'm thinking that the phrase "during the nighttime" only applies to theft (the word immediately preceding the phrase), and that nighttime is not required for the more serious burglary, robbery, and aggravated robbery.

I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on this.

Paul
Paul

Springfield XD(M )9
Springfield XDsc9
Kel Tec PF9


09/16/2009: USPS Delivered Application, 11:52 am, AUSTIN
10/09/2009: Received Pin # in the mail, status 'processing application'
12/08/2009: Application Completed - license issued or certificate active
12/14/2009: Plastic in hand
User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 13562
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#10

Post by C-dub »

I think you're right. Theft or criminal mischief in the nightime. However, it seems like A and B are somewhat contradictory in that A does not say anything about escaping with the property like B does.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 13562
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#11

Post by C-dub »

Oh, wait. A is to prevent the original crime and B is after the fact to prevent the criminal from fleeing.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider

jsimmons
Banned
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:56 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#12

Post by jsimmons »

I believe you can also use deadly force to "prevent escape". I seem to remember being told that in my CHL class last weekend.
Took class, paid fees, changed my mind. I want constitutional carry.
User avatar

boomerang
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 2629
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#13

Post by boomerang »

Get a refund.
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"
User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 13562
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#14

Post by C-dub »

boomerang wrote:Get a refund.
But, why? That's the part "B" referred to above.

It may not be the best idea, but legal.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
User avatar

boomerang
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 2629
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat

#15

Post by boomerang »

I knew someone would say that. Fine. Get a partial refund. "rlol"

Chapter 9 allows for deadly force to "protect or recover" the property, not to stop the criminal from escaping. You can see it doesn't allow deadly force to stop a fleeing murderer or rapist.
Last edited by boomerang on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"
Post Reply

Return to “Other States”