Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
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Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
An interesting item from Florida:
(From World News Daily)
Fla. court OKs force against retreating attackers
By BILL KACZOR
Associated Press Writer
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida's "stand-your-ground" law allows the use of deadly force for self-protection even if an attacker or intruder is in retreat, an appellate court said Wednesday.
A three-judge panel of the 1st District Court of Appeal issued that explanation for last month releasing Jimmy Hair from jail, where he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
Hair, 28, was charged with fatally shooting Charles Harper, 26. Harper had forced his way into a car in which Hair was a passenger and then tussled with him. The car was parked outside a Tallahassee nightclub where Harper earlier had argued with the driver.
Sandi Copes, a spokeswoman for Attorney General Bill McCollum, said no decision had yet been made on whether to ask for a rehearing or possibly appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. She declined further comment.
A trial judge had refused to grant Hair "stand-your-ground" immunity due to conflicting testimony on whether Harper was being pulled out of the car by a friend when he was shot, but the appellate court said that didn't matter.
"The statute makes no exception from immunity when the victim is in retreat," the panel wrote in an unsigned, unanimous opinion.
(From World News Daily)
Fla. court OKs force against retreating attackers
By BILL KACZOR
Associated Press Writer
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida's "stand-your-ground" law allows the use of deadly force for self-protection even if an attacker or intruder is in retreat, an appellate court said Wednesday.
A three-judge panel of the 1st District Court of Appeal issued that explanation for last month releasing Jimmy Hair from jail, where he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
Hair, 28, was charged with fatally shooting Charles Harper, 26. Harper had forced his way into a car in which Hair was a passenger and then tussled with him. The car was parked outside a Tallahassee nightclub where Harper earlier had argued with the driver.
Sandi Copes, a spokeswoman for Attorney General Bill McCollum, said no decision had yet been made on whether to ask for a rehearing or possibly appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. She declined further comment.
A trial judge had refused to grant Hair "stand-your-ground" immunity due to conflicting testimony on whether Harper was being pulled out of the car by a friend when he was shot, but the appellate court said that didn't matter.
"The statute makes no exception from immunity when the victim is in retreat," the panel wrote in an unsigned, unanimous opinion.
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Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
Does anyone know where Texas law is on this kind of situation?
We are allowed to pursue and shoot at people who have committed a felony in the night.
Are Texas CHL's able to shoot someone who has assaulted them in order to effect the capture
of the bad guy? Even if he has none of our property in his possession?
SIA
We are allowed to pursue and shoot at people who have committed a felony in the night.
Are Texas CHL's able to shoot someone who has assaulted them in order to effect the capture
of the bad guy? Even if he has none of our property in his possession?
SIA
N. Texas LTC's hold 3 breakfasts each month. All are 800 AM. OC is fine.
2nd Saturdays: Rudy's BBQ, N. Dallas Pkwy, N.bound, N. of Main St., Frisco.
3rd Saturdays: Golden Corral, 465 E. I-20, Collins St exit, Arlington.
4th Saturdays: Sunny St. Cafe, off I-20, Exit 415, Mikus Rd, Willow Park.
2nd Saturdays: Rudy's BBQ, N. Dallas Pkwy, N.bound, N. of Main St., Frisco.
3rd Saturdays: Golden Corral, 465 E. I-20, Collins St exit, Arlington.
4th Saturdays: Sunny St. Cafe, off I-20, Exit 415, Mikus Rd, Willow Park.
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
Are they still a threat?surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Does anyone know where Texas law is on this kind of situation?
Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the felony.surprise_i'm_armed wrote:We are allowed to pursue and shoot at people who have committed a felony in the night.
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... 009.00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"
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Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
Maybe there's a detail I'm missing here, but I wonder what happened to this man's right to a "speedy" trial?he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
It appears that use of deadly force is only allowed if the perp is fleeing with your property in his possession during nighttime. This is covered by P.C. 9.42surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Does anyone know where Texas law is on this kind of situation?
...
Are Texas CHL's able to shoot someone who has assaulted them in order to effect the capture
of the bad guy? Even if he has none of our property in his possession?
SIA
Paul(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the otheh imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Paul
Springfield XD(M )9
Springfield XDsc9
Kel Tec PF9
09/16/2009: USPS Delivered Application, 11:52 am, AUSTIN
10/09/2009: Received Pin # in the mail, status 'processing application'
12/08/2009: Application Completed - license issued or certificate active
12/14/2009: Plastic in hand
Springfield XD(M )9
Springfield XDsc9
Kel Tec PF9
09/16/2009: USPS Delivered Application, 11:52 am, AUSTIN
10/09/2009: Received Pin # in the mail, status 'processing application'
12/08/2009: Application Completed - license issued or certificate active
12/14/2009: Plastic in hand
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
I don't know anything about this case, but it seems that many delays are induced from the defense side, for various reasons legal and tactical. When you are charged, it should mean that the DA thinks he has enough evidence to convict you. Do you have enough evidence to counter that? May need a delay while you scrape up some. After you find a lawyer, and he has time to study the case, etc etc. Going straight to trial may not be in your best interests... And maybe the DA's witnesses will wander off, evidence get lost, the state criminal lab gets investigated...TheArmedFarmer wrote:Maybe there's a detail I'm missing here, but I wonder what happened to this man's right to a "speedy" trial?he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
I would also suppose that once you ask for a delay (ergo forfeiting your right to a speedy trial) you are at the mercy of everyone else's calendar; the judge, the DA, your own lawyer.
USAF 1982-2005
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Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
ELB, that's a good answer. I received a PM giving a similar answer, and it makes good sense. My question is answered and I'm satisfied.
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
It is very common for one or the other side to ask for a postponement in the trial. I have some friends who have been waiting over a year now a case of 5 counts of negligent vehicular homicide and the trial has been rescheduled 5 times at the request of the defense attorney. Needless to say this has been very hard on the family to have it drug out so long. They just want to get through this so they can get some closure on the tragedy.TheArmedFarmer wrote:Maybe there's a detail I'm missing here, but I wonder what happened to this man's right to a "speedy" trial?he had spent two years awaiting trial on a first-degree murder charge.
To keep this on topic, some states have a law that allows a non-LEO to shoot a fleeing felon (i.e. one that has just committed a felony act, not a convicted felon. Although that might be a good law in some instances. )
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
Psalm 82:3-4
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
Psalm 82:3-4
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
After re-reading 9.42, I'm thinking that the phrase "during the nighttime" only applies to theft (the word immediately preceding the phrase), and that nighttime is not required for the more serious burglary, robbery, and aggravated robbery.psehorne wrote:
It appears that use of deadly force is only allowed if the perp is fleeing with your property in his possession during nighttime. This is covered by P.C. 9.42
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the otheh imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on this.
Paul
Paul
Springfield XD(M )9
Springfield XDsc9
Kel Tec PF9
09/16/2009: USPS Delivered Application, 11:52 am, AUSTIN
10/09/2009: Received Pin # in the mail, status 'processing application'
12/08/2009: Application Completed - license issued or certificate active
12/14/2009: Plastic in hand
Springfield XD(M )9
Springfield XDsc9
Kel Tec PF9
09/16/2009: USPS Delivered Application, 11:52 am, AUSTIN
10/09/2009: Received Pin # in the mail, status 'processing application'
12/08/2009: Application Completed - license issued or certificate active
12/14/2009: Plastic in hand
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
I think you're right. Theft or criminal mischief in the nightime. However, it seems like A and B are somewhat contradictory in that A does not say anything about escaping with the property like B does.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
Oh, wait. A is to prevent the original crime and B is after the fact to prevent the criminal from fleeing.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
I believe you can also use deadly force to "prevent escape". I seem to remember being told that in my CHL class last weekend.
Took class, paid fees, changed my mind. I want constitutional carry.
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
But, why? That's the part "B" referred to above.boomerang wrote:Get a refund.
It may not be the best idea, but legal.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
Re: Deadly Force even if Attacker is in Retreat
I knew someone would say that. Fine. Get a partial refund.
Chapter 9 allows for deadly force to "protect or recover" the property, not to stop the criminal from escaping. You can see it doesn't allow deadly force to stop a fleeing murderer or rapist.
Chapter 9 allows for deadly force to "protect or recover" the property, not to stop the criminal from escaping. You can see it doesn't allow deadly force to stop a fleeing murderer or rapist.
Last edited by boomerang on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"