Thoughts on the Practicality of Pistol Caliber Carbine?

[Kiowa Scout]

I have looked through the posts and could not find this so I decided to post my questions.
I am thinking about getting at least pistol caliber carbine(PCC).
My questions are as follows:
How many people do own one?
What do you have?
Do you try to get a PCC that is magazine interchangeable with your CCW?

I am currently looking at the Kel-tec Sub-2000 because I can get one that interchanges with my Sig P226.
I was also looking at the Beretta CX4 Storm. I have a M9 so I could interchange mags there as well. What are your thoughts?

[mgood]

I wanted a short, quick, semi-auto rifle in .44Mag. I think Ruger used to make one.
I ended up getting a Mini-14 in .223. (I did consider - am still considering - a lever action .44, maybe a Marlin.)

I've seen a 9mm AR that took Uzi magazines. It was pretty cool, but the only advantage I could see was reduced ammo costs for some fun plinking.
I've also seen a contraption that you attach to a Glock frame and this thing becomes the stock and barrel of a carbine.

[Excaliber]

I have looked through the posts and could not find this so I decided to post my questions.
I am thinking about getting at least pistol caliber carbine(PCC).
My questions are as follows:
How many people do own one?
What do you have?
Do you try to get a PCC that is magazine interchangeable with your CCW?

I am currently looking at the Kel-tec Sub-2000 because I can get one that interchanges with my Sig P226.
I was also looking at the Beretta CX4 Storm. I have a M9 so I could interchange mags there as well. What are your thoughts?

Pistol caliber carbines strike me as an ingenious solution to a nonexistent problem.

I see little use for a longer, heavier gun that fires the same projectiles as a much shorter, lighter, and easier to carry one.

Yes, I know the longer sight radius gives you some degree of increased hit probability, but the same sight radius on a rifle of similar weight could deliver a much more effective projectile in a true rifle caliber that would give you a much better chance of decisively ending a fight with just one round.

If the purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to your rifle, and your rifle is no more powerful than your pistol, I have to ask:

"What's the point?"

I could come up with some very specialized circumstances where guns of this type might make sense (e.g., a .22LR rifle as a companion to a .22 pistol for either rodent control around the ranch or cheap practice), but for self defense purposes I couldn't recommend it when more versatile and effective options are readily available.

[Kiowa Scout]

mgood and excaliber,

Thanks for your thoughts. I keep going back and forth on this one.
My interested was piqued again when I watched the episode of Best Defense Survival and they were talking about in a survival situation how it could be useful.

As far no advantage in the PCC, my p226 shoots a 124gr +p HP at about 1290fps, the same bullet out of a carbine is travelling at roughly 1700 fps. There is some increase, but does it make that much difference, I guess we need to ask SWAT, FBI HRT & SRT why they carry the H&K MP5 for urban situations?

[ELB]

You might find more food for thought here:

http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=167" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a forum dedicated to PCC discussion.

WRT to HK MP5s and similar weapons, here is the opinion of one man who has used them: http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=51813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Others have opined that the MP5 fit a niche (more practical accuracy than a handgun, higher capacity ) before M-4s were available, but now that M-4s are widespread, these are taking the place of the MP5 in police SWAT units. I do not know that for a fact, but seems logical enough.

Also, IIRC, 9mm loaded for smg/pcc use by military and police were hotter than those for pistol use, thus providing more zip than just a longer barrel. That probably doesn't apply to most citizen uses, unless you load your own.

[jtran987]

i believe all the government carry the h&k mp5 not because it is a man stopper but because it is efficient, small, compact, low recoil, easy to shoot. those features makes it ideal for urban warfare where there are tight corners and the such, im sure if they could get the same size, reliability, and low recoil out of a .223 or .308 they would instantly swithc to that but since they cant they will continue to use the h&k mp5 9mm

personally i wouldnt get one, just my 2 cents

[Excaliber]

mgood and excaliber,

Thanks for your thoughts. I keep going back and forth on this one.
My interested was piqued again when I watched the episode of Best Defense Survival and they were talking about in a survival situation how it could be useful.

As far no advantage in the PCC, my p226 shoots a 124gr +p HP at about 1290fps, the same bullet out of a carbine is travelling at roughly 1700 fps. There is some increase, but does it make that much difference, I guess we need to ask SWAT, FBI HRT & SRT why they carry the H&K MP5 for urban situations?

I have fired the MP5, and it is an awesome weapon when used within its purpose designed envelope.

Some years ago the FBI issued MP5's as the long arm for trunk carry by agents in the field. According to the last conversation I had with an FBI firearms instructor, they now issue either the carbine versions of either the AR15 or M16 for this purpose because of superior ballistic and on target performance, particularly at ranges beyond average pistol encounter distances.

Some entry team members sometimes carry the MP5 (often in .40 caliber) because those fully automatic guns meet the three criteria for producing the most rapidly incapacitating damage: multiple, simultaneous, and penetrating wounds. Any semiauto pistol caliber carbine you buy is going to be missing that critical element of fully automatic fire and will not deliver the same "mutliple and simultaneous" results.

SWAT and other elite units also do not generally use the MP5 for fights at distances beyond pistol engagement distances because better options are available with rifles that fire rifle cartridges.

[G26ster]

In the right hands, an almost 70 year old carbine can make you think it's fully automatic. Go to 12:00 into the video.

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[Excaliber]

In the right hands, an almost 70 year old carbine can make you think it's fully automatic. Go to 12:00 into the video.

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The same can be said of the revolver. The video evidence is here.

The operative phrase is, "in the right hands."

[Kiowa Scout]

Thanks for all the comments. I also appreciate the links to other sources of info. I guess I should have stated too that I am looking for something that could be used a HD gun as well as out to approx. 50-75yds. I have the rifle calibers covered or will, but I am always looking at other things. I was thinking of the PCC for a secondary weapon for my wife at home as well. I know that my marlin 336 or my AR carbine are better suited for further off, but in the home, I want something that is less likely to over-penetrate. I know that shot placement is paramount, but I like to eliminate as many variables as possible. Also, in a high stressed situation, I think that a PCC would be easier to handle than a pistol.

[mgood]

In the right hands, an almost 70 year old carbine can make you think it's fully automatic. Go to 12:00 into the video.

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The same can be said of the revolver. The video evidence is here.

The operative phrase is, "in the right hands."

Yeah, but everyone knows Jerry's not human. Not a fair comparison.

[G26ster]

I want something that is less likely to over-penetrate. I know that shot placement is paramount, but I like to eliminate as many variables as possible. Also, in a high stressed situation, I think that a PCC would be easier to handle than a pistol.

I'm looking at the Rossi Ranch Hand when it comes out at the end of the year. Possibly in .44 magnum. I have narrow doorways and hallways, and a 24" carbine sounds good. Just MHO.

[The Annoyed Man]

In the right hands, an almost 70 year old carbine can make you think it's fully automatic. Go to 12:00 into the video.

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The same can be said of the revolver. The video evidence is here.

The operative phrase is, "in the right hands."

I was at DPC today, shooting with my family and a friend, and we kept hearing what I would have been prepared to swear in court was fully automatic fire from one of the other shooting bays. It happened several times we heard "b-r-r-r-r-r-r-up! b-r-r-r-r-up!" Finally, my son wandered down to see what the guy was shooting. It was a 9mm race tuned 1911 pistol. The shooter was just really, really fast with it.

[tacticool]

I was thinking of the PCC for a secondary weapon for my wife at home as well.

If someone is petite or recoil sensitive, a pistol caliber carbine or M1 Carbine can be a good choice, especially for a home defender who will stay behind cover and not go looking for trouble.

I have a Kel-Tec carbine and it's great to carry where a handgun is prohibited, but I think a carbine with a better stock and better sights is a better choice if you don't use the folding function.