TexasCHLforum.com

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:00 am**

With Student Government elections coming up at UT Austin, as a student, I've heard some campaigning on making the Drag (Guadalupe St. near campus) safer. Also, I live in West Campus (on 22nd Street), and there have been quite a few car robberies and home invasions as of late.

After some thought, I've decided I would like to start raising awareness in the area and make it known that there will be students and locals walking around at night openly with long guns. I thought I'd start by carrying a 12-gauge around with me (It's a Winchester hunting shotgun, nothing tactical or particularly threatening).

I know I will undoubtedly be talking to police during these walks, but after an explanation as to my intentions, they should be on their way. Should I take the ride, I'll appreciate the help with tuition I would receive from the suit for false arrest.

My hope is that as I talk to people and perhaps even hand out some flyers telling what our rights are (with IANAL disclaimers, of course), more people might join me and criminals will think twice before trying anything.

I'm thinking the best way to carry would be strapped to my back so it's clear I am not in any way intending to scare anyone.

I am educated on CC on campuses, but is OC of long guns illegal? If so, I will stay across the street from campus.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:32 am**

Carrying a shotgun on the campus is very likely to get you arrested (if not shot), I believe it's a third-degree felony. If you're a student, you'll most likely be kicked-out of school, too.
While openly carrying a long gun is technically legal in Texas (off the campus), disorderly conduct, breach of peace, things like that, are not. I suppose you are an adult, so you can choose your own path, but I think this is a terrible idea. One person walking around Austin with a shotgun is really only going to raise awareness that there is a guy walking around with a shotgun. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, but this sort of thing would not help out the cause of those interested in protecting gun rights. If you want to get involved, there are far better ways than this.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:55 am**

JCole wrote:Carrying a shotgun on the campus is very likely to get you arrested (if not shot), I believe it's a third-degree felony. If you're a student, you'll most likely be kicked-out of school, too.
While openly carrying a long gun is technically legal in Texas (off the campus), disorderly conduct, breach of peace, things like that, are not. I suppose you are an adult, so you can choose your own path, but I think this is a terrible idea. One person walking around Austin with a shotgun is really only going to raise awareness that there is a guy walking around with a shotgun. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, but this sort of thing would not help out the cause of those interested in protecting gun rights. If you want to get involved, there are far better ways than this.

I assumed such about campus carry.

And I see no difference between this idea and the open-carry rallies held in other states. The only thing I need to find is other people to rally with me.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:22 am**

The difference is, you have a right to defend yourself. You do not have a right to patrol the streets of Austin meting out vigilante justice against car thieves.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:28 am**

It's not vigilante justice. And I never said anything about cars.

The problem is the masses of homeless people that too often cause trouble at night and the break-ins in West Campus. If criminals know the people in the area are armed, they'll be less likely to try to steal things.

I don't plan to ever need, use, or threaten to use the weapon while walking with it. The point is making people aware that its their right and making criminals aware that they should be more careful.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:42 am**

I think the best way is to form a group and as a group to to Austin PD and inform them about your armed stroll. Let them tell you if it is Okay.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:30 pm**

Before you do this, please pay $14 to join prepaid legal. Have the phone number of 3 close friends/family that you can call. Have the phone number of a reputable bail bondsman you can call. That $14 will save you THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. Have a pocketful of quarters to make these calls as they might not allow you to keep your cell phone.

I will pledge at $25 to $100 if you get arrested and charged, provided that I get a copy of the arrest papers so that I could determine that you were not engaged in illegal activities AND you should also join prepaid legal. c'mon guys, let's put our money where our mouth is and pledge some money to this kid if he gets arrested protesting OUR constitutional rights. I invite y'all to cough it up!

P.S. be sure to ask your lawyer for city ordinances, laws, and legal advice BEFORE you do this. As long as you do this, I (and others on this forum) will financially back you if you get in trouble. Remember to wear a suit and tie, be respectful/poite with the police officers, and have some good sound bites for the media when they show up. Do not ramble when the media shows up or they WILL quote you out of context in a negative manner. What is rambling? For example, if you say, "Dragworms should be shot if they attack people," you will be quoted out of context and they'll edit the footage so that it says, "Dragworms should be shot." So, come up with some catchy sound bites that can't be quoted out of context and practice saying these sound bites for ALL manner of questions. Even if the sound bite is not the perfect answer, give them the sound bite. Do not allow liberal journalists to entice you to ramble so that they can quote you out of context. Good luck!

BTW, the OP is talking about OFF campus locations. West campus is an off campus neighborhood and so is Guadalupe. One side of Guadalupe is off campus while the other side is on campus. UT Austin is on Guadalupe street. I doesn't sound like he'll be doing anything illegal, that's why I'm willing to back him financially.

P.P.S. there are probably city ordinances against political rallies without a permit. So, I would suggest that you don't do a rally with bullhorns and political chants. Instead, I suggest that you and a group of friends just walk around and just happen to be carrying shotguns, which is perfectly legal. AFAIK IANAL

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:18 pm**

Wow, drjoker. Thanks for the advice and possible financial backing. I didn't expect that from this forum, I was only hoping for advice.

The tips on being prepared are very helpful. I wouldn't have thought to be prepared for the media, but now that I think about it, it may be better to call them in advance to let them know so I can get more backers. Also, that way if the police do arrest me, they will be well documented without me having to carry a video camera.

I'll be contacting the police department and researching Austin city ordinances to see if they have any additional laws against OC of weapons. Although aren't they preempted by state laws on gun rights? Or does that only apply to 30.06 signs and CHL licensees? And I will definitely alert the police as to when and where I will be so they aren't surprised when they receive calls.

I don't think I've ever seen someone in a suit carrying a shotgun around. That may be a funny sight.

But it is a great tip, since it makes it even clearer that I'm not doing anything calculated to cause panic (or however that law reads).

I should work on memorizing the statutes that apply (along with section numbers), as those would be perfect sound bites to recite.

And perhaps I should start a blog with my full opinion and intent. The press would probably report that website if I gave it, and if they misquote me, people can go there to see what I'm really about. Also, I've seen several blogs about legal cases that receive huge backing when the law is on their side, but the police aren't.

As for the prepaid legal, is there a link you can send me? Prepaidlegal.com has plans for $312/year https://www.prepaidlegal.com/newCorp2/l ... plans.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but you were saying something about $14. Is this similar to retaining a lawyer? Do you have experience with the quality of this sort of legal plan?

I appreciate the support. This won't necessarily be happening soon (as in the next week), since I may purchase my own shotgun rather than using the family's. I'm debating whether to get a stock with pistol-grip or without. I've only fired shotguns with standard grip. I won't be getting one without a stock, since the laws defining them as shotguns are somewhat less black-and-white, and I don't see the point since you take all the recoil with your wrists (ouch!).

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:37 pm**

Also, I looked up the city ordinances. Here are the restrictions on firearms:

http://www.amlegal.com/austin_nxt/gatew ... Chapter9-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The relevant portions:

§ 9-6-1 DEFINITIONS.

In this chapter:

[...]

(4) CITY PREMISES means a building or real property owned, leased, occupied, or controlled by the City, excluding a street, sidewalk, or park.

[...]

(6) FIREARM means:

(a) a gun, pistol, rifle, or device designed, made, adapted, or readily convertible to use explosive energy generated by an explosion or burning substance to expel a projectile through a barrel; or

[...]

§ 9-6-2 FIREARMS PROHIBITED ON CITY PREMISES.

Except as provided in Sections 9-6-4 (Exception for Peace or Security Officers, or Retired Officers), 9-6-5 (Exception for Gun Shows), and 9-6-6 (Exception for Shipping at Airport), a person may not enter or remain on City premises if the person is carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm.

§ 9-6-3 NOTICE OF PROHIBITION.

(A) The city manager shall post notice at each city premise that a person carrying a firearm:

(1) may not enter city premises; and

(2) must immediately leave city premises.

(B) The notice posted under this section shall include a statement, in English and Spanish, to read substantially as follows:

A person may not enter these premises while carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm. A person who enters these premises carrying a firearm may be subject to prosecution under Section 30.05 (Criminal Trespass) of the Texas Penal Code.

[...]

§ 9-6-7 FIREARM DISCHARGE RESTRICTED.

(A) Except as provided in Subsection (B), a person may not discharge a firearm:

(1) in the city limits; or

(2) on, across, or into Lake Austin or the Colorado River within the city limits.

(B) A person may discharge:

(1) a firearm at a gunsmith business or a shooting facility issued a permit under Article 2 (Archery Ranges and Shooting Facilities) of Chapter 4-3 (Amusement Park, Circus, Carnival, Archery Range, or Shooting Facility) if the firearm is discharged:

(a) in compliance with the requirements of the permit; and

(b) at an approved firing line in the direction of a target;

(2) a firearm in the exercise of the person's express or implied right to discharge a firearm under state or federal law; or

(3) an airgun in an enclosed building or shooting facility specifically designed to prevent a projectile discharged by the airgun from traveling beyond the boundaries of the building or shooting facility.

So I would be carrying a firearm (of course), within city limits (not prohibited on sidewalks or streets), and not discharging it (unless someone attacks me in which case I am exercising my "express or implied right to discharge a firearm under state or federal law").

Also, I know y'all aren't going to be happy (neither was I) about the 30.05 signs the city manager is supposed to put outside of city buildings. It's unenforceable, but it's on the books, so any CHL-holders in "violation" will probably beat the rap but not the ride (IANAL).

Also, drjoker, I found it funny at the end of your post when you said, "...which is perfectly legal. AFAIK IANAL". I think you meant, "...which is perfectly legal, AFAIK. IANAL". The former makes it sound like you might have unintentionally earned a law degree at some point.

(EDIT: added a "[...]" before § 9-6-7)

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:00 pm**

Sorry to be posting again, but I read into prepaidlegal.com. They have an office in downtown Austin, so that's handy.

But unfortunately, for their plan, it states, "If the lawsuit was filed because of something that occurred prior to your membership or because of conditions that were reasonably anticipated or foreseeable prior to your enrollment, then the lawsuit is excluded from your Trial Defense benefit."

I think they would likely argue that it was planned prior to enrollment, and I should have anticipated an arrest. That's what I would say if I were that lawyer.

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:22 pm**

Maybe one has to call the Austin City manager and tell them that your City Ordinance in regard of notice to prohibition of firearms on premises is unenforceable, against the law and useless, any false arrest can lead to a law suit for false arrest by a CHL holder.

Any one dare to be a test case?

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:40 pm**

Before doing anything in life, I always copy other people who have accomplished what I wanted to do. After all, why reinvent the wheel? Why did I ask you to be respectful, have soundbites ready, and wear a suit and tie? Because our brother in arms has done exactly what you propose and did NOT get arrested. Here is a video of a brother with an AR15 at an obama rally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdG3EfZ ... o_response

If you want videos taken, buy a pen video camera. They are available on ebay for $15-20. It looks just like a pen.

Prepaid legal is a legal discount plan. You pay $14-20 per month and get legal coverage. It is sorta like having a lawyer on retainer. I figure, if we're possibly going to help with your legal expenses, you should minimize those expenses by joining prepaid legal. Their website says it costs $312 OR LESS. Their plans are sold by independent sales agents who will usually discount the monthly charge for you and you can pay monthly. Their lawyers give you legal advice for free as it is included in the plan. Keep in mind that lawyers charge $50 to 200 per hour and up, so their answering your questions for 30 min before you do this shotgun walk is CHEAP if you're paying less than $20.

Dude, don't tell them that you thought about doing the shotgun walk before you signed up. What, do you tell girls on the first date that you intend to take them home with you and then never call them back? Besides, I had a situation with them where I had a ticket before I signed up. Even though the lawyer couldn't argue the ticket for me in court because it was a "pre-existing condition," she still gave me some valuable advice on the phone. I used this advice to go to court myself and had the ticket dropped.

Remember the motto on the ceiling of one of the UT libraries, "The truth shall set you free,"

Posted: **Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:16 pm**

Don't try that in Round Rock!

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:29 pm**

Don't try it on campus either.

Thing is people at UT are still sensitive about the whole Charles Whitman thing.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:43 pm**

ifanyonecan wrote:Wow, drjoker. Thanks for the advice and possible financial backing. I didn't expect that from this forum, I was only hoping for advice.

You may or may not get individual financial support from individuals, but do not take anyone's comments to mean you will be getting financial support from "the forum." It will not be forthcoming. Also, the TexasCHLforum will not be used as a fund raising vehicle for this effort.

Chas.

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