Anyone been to the Frontsight training

[extremist]

If you want real feedback from someone who has been there several times, and not some internet commando second hand drivel, then feel free to contact me.'

Who are you referring to?

Referring to people on other boards that like to slam Front Sight training when they know nothing about it.

And with regards to the slam above, how many accidental shootings have occurred at the other big schools (i.e. Recently GUNSITE)? How many were shooter carelessness? And how many were law enforcement (doing it their way). Look it up. AND what rate per students trained?

Give us the numbers please. As for Thunder Ranch, I believe the answer is still none.

I have no numbers for Thunder Ranch. I know of at least two incidents at Gunsite that have occured in the past, one very recently (although not fatal). My point was, you cannot single out Front Sight and say that's the only training facility that has accidental shootings.

FS trains more regular people every year than all the other schools COMBINED.

What is the source for this statement? I hope it's not Dr. Piazza

No, it is Wes LaHullier, the operations director at Front Sight.

Did you know of the class action lawsuit that was filed and the claims made?

Of course, old news, not relevant to the TRAINING aspect of the school.

Did you see the absurd promotional CD that Front Sight/Dr. Piazza sent to all IDPA members through IDPA HQ a few years ago? If so, what did you think of the claims?

No, didn't see that. I for one like the promotional CD that was put together that is given out if you request it, or attend the courses. Of course there were grandiose plans that were in the video that now are not realistically going to be completed. But the training facilities that are there now and operational are good and improvements are made each year. Will he ever reach his goal of building out? Who knows.

I don't know how any pro-2nd Amendment supporter can possibly criticize Piazza's Front Sight philosophy of trying to change the mindset of NON-ProGun people onto our side? Do you not agree with what he's trying to accomplish? Do you not agree with his examples of Harley Davidson and how the image was turned around from negative to positive? I for one respect Larry Pratt, Tonya Mataska, Aaron Zellman and other spokesman on the video about what Front Sight's mission is. Do you disagree with the "mission" (not the sales pitch)?

Go to FS as much and as often as you like, but TexasCHLforum will not be used to promote it.

Sorry I hit a sore spot with you, that was not my intention. I was just offering an answer to the poster that had some first hand knowledge and experience with the training and the materials - which is what he asked. I don't consider that "promoting" Front Sight.

Regards,
James

[baldeagle]

As for two-way range? I not sure what you are talking about.

He's referring to a range where the bullets go two ways; from you and towards you. There's nothing like a live fire exercise to get your attention and make you seriously question your commitment to the armed forces. Not to mention teach you how to eat dirt and make yourself real thin and flat.

[extremist]

As for two-way range? I not sure what you are talking about.

He's referring to a range where the bullets go two ways; from you and towards you. There's nothing like a live fire exercise to get your attention and make you seriously question your commitment to the armed forces. Not to mention teach you how to eat dirt and make yourself real thin and flat.

Gotcha. And as I replied, fortunately I have not been put in that position AND I NEVER SAID I HAD. What percentage of the top IDPA MA and EX class shooters, have? What percentage of the top USPSA GM and M shooters have? Does that make them any less qualified to talk about what is good training and what is not?

Regards,
James

[extremist]

Please provide evidence of anyone dying at Front Sight due to Range Officer negligence. I don't believe you can.

Fine: http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?s=6847907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The accident on July 4th is the subject of a criminal investigation. The I-Team learned late Thursday the Nye County sheriff's office plans to recommend felony charges against two of the instructors involved in the accident. Detectives believe their actions rise to the level of criminal negligence.

Gee, I had forgotten all about the class-action lawsuit and also failing to meet fire-safety standards 4 times in 2 years.

My "internet commando" comment wasn't intended directly at you but those on the internet who disparage Front Sight without having been there and having first hand knowledge.

Fair enough - my apologies if I took that the wrong way.

Just to be clear, while tragic, and certainly a gut wrenching thing to have to live with, it had nothing to do with firearms.

That was a zip-line accident that occurred on a July 4th weekend and was a result of a YOUNG person at the other end that should not have been in that responsible situation.

Fire safety standards? What does THAT have to do with on the range training. Again, not really relevant.

Regards,
James

[WildBill]

Just to be clear, while tragic, and certainly a gut wrenching thing to have to live with, it had nothing to do with firearms.

That was a zip-line accident that occurred on a July 4th weekend and was a result of a YOUNG person at the other end that should not have been in that responsible situation.

Fire safety standards? What does THAT have to do with on the range training. Again, not really relevant. Regards, James

Even though the incidents may have "nothing to do with firearms", it may suggest that there is a lack of systemic safety concerns for the entire site, i.e. a "YOUNG person" that should not have been in that responsible situation".

[Hoi Polloi]

I don't know anything about the place, but I can tell you as a consumer that a place which has 4 accidental shootings, a zip line death, and a class action lawsuit filed against it is not a place I would feel safe going for training with deadly weapons. They're in a remote location which takes first responders over 30 minutes to access and they apparently didn't have people sufficiently trained in CPR much less have an AED available or accessible. If that's how they respond with a zip line catastrophe, imagine what would happen if you were shot!

Well, we don't have to imagine, because they have a history of that, too. These issues, everything from the fire safety problems to the wrongful death, all point to poor leadership and training. Combined with remote location and high risk activities, it's a recipe for disaster. No amount of swag could get me to disregard that. The uncharitable and hostile defense of the place combined with the minimization of a person's death that I'm seeing here just reassures me that I'm right.

[Grog]

I agree with Hoi Polloi 100%.


I've never been there, never thought about going, but there are enough warning signs that would make me not go for free.


As far as what IDPA and USPSA gamers think is good "training", well that ranks low to me and my real world needs.

[extremist]

The uncharitable and hostile defense of the place combined with the minimization of a person's death that I'm seeing here just reassures me that I'm right.

Show me where I have been "uncharitable" and "hostile". You sir, are judging me for something that I'm not guilty of.

And this thread has drifted totally OFF TOPIC as I'm the only one that has had a response even remotely on track to what the poster originally asked:

Wanted to see if anyone has been to the frontsight training and one really gets all the material and gifts that are mention in the ads.

Sadly, invariably, discussion of Front Sight usually degrades into a vocal minority, who shout down anyone that has anything favorable to say about the place.

I'm done, close the thread, as "justapatriot" is not getting any useful feedback.

Regards,
James

[Crossfire]

Seems to me, there was a LOT of useful feedback in this thread. Backed up by actual facts, newspaper articles, etc.

And then, there was the "opinion" that 4 accidental shootings and a fatal zipline incident are not "relevant" to the training received. And that opinion comes from someone who promotes FrontSite on their own webpage.

I would say the OP got exactly what he needed to know.

[Hoi Polloi]

Ha ha ha ha ha. I find that response amusing. I do not judge you. I commented on your tone and choice of words and the way they are perceived by others, especially those with delicate feminine sensitivities like mine.

A vocal minority? It seems that you're the 1-man minority who has an agenda of promoting the place for some unknown reason (carrying over intensification from previous conversations on the topic, being hired by them, whatever) and there are so few who are supportive that you puff yourself up and try to shut down any conversation that disagrees with you. Indeed, your tone has pulled in people like myself who have no knowledge of the place or previous experience with it and it helped to cement any concern we have over its past.

You think they're improperly maligned, have problem records that are about even with other similar venues when compared per capita, that they are a great value for the money with a wonderful mission, and have little to no blame in the accidents that have occurred. OK, your position is known and understood. And as a completely disinterested party, I shared my reservations that I wouldn't trust my life to the odds that you are right because it doesn't appear likely to me, or apparently to their sheriffs or the deceased's family or any of the many in a class-action lawsuit against them or the many reasonable instructors and CHL holders here. And your response is that we shouldn't be allowed to discuss this and a demand to close the thread because you are done with it.

I have a suggestion: if you are done with the thread, stop posting. Anyone else interested in continuing the conversation along with natural side-conversations that arise from the ongoing primary discussion will do so, as is common etiquette and protocol on internet discussion forums.

[HeeHaw]

I have taken over 30 classes from Front Sight, Handgun, rifle, precision rifle, their advanced tactic classes and have never once felt unsafe at any time, ever. I have never been muzzled with a gun while there. And I have taken classes where you work with teams in live fire scenarios.

And that reporter from KLAS tv in Vegas has had an agenda against front site as she is an antigun freak who does everything she can to make FS look bad. So take her words with a grain of salt as most of what she writes is incorrect once the real facts come out.

I agree Naish is way over the top with his marketing (it drives me crazy how every add or piece of info they give out has 4 or 5 pictures of him on it. The class completion certs are so ridiculous with his pictures all over them I would never even want to show them to someone) and his business plan seems odd, and the whole law suit thing? I probably would have sued them to if I would have spent that much money and got none of the promises out of it. But the business to this point has been successful, FS has been going since the mid 90s and it is still going today. And they do teach a lot of students. Personally I do not like Naish, I have went the rounds with him several times on the phone over different things. But the instructors at the school are a different story. They always treat me well and all seem to very much love their job. Which always makes the classes worth while and fun.

As far as not having EMTs on site, that is a flat out lie. A bunch of the instructors are certified EMTs and are constantly getting more training in that regard to better themselves. As far as being away from the hospital, that is true. Jesus, the guy that died on the zip line died on impact, CPR or any other medical attention would not and did not help him anyway, I assure you he got medical attention. The fault of that was not the young person running the scissor lift like everyone likes to claim. It was Jesus himself as he did not check the line to make sure it was clear after he was told to go when clear. Jesus was an experienced repeller and had been on that zip line many times before. It should have been obvious to himself that that scissor lift was in the way and that another student was still attached to the line. As well as it should have been obvious to the instructor that Jesus was not paying attention and should have kept ahold of him. The young person running the scissor lift did everything is his power to get the other person unclipped from the line in time or there may have been two deaths from the negligence that happened that day.

Every shooting that has happened is because of negligence of the student not the staff, I believe every incident has been a student shooting them-self in the leg and one in the support hand. They were not following the safety rules that are gone over for hours the first day of class. That is not the schools fault, it is called natural selection. If a person is an idiot and is negligent with a firearm and does not follow the 4 safety rules of gun handling then they are going to hurt themselves. That is a fact. Several of those people were military and police, so even those who have had more training than us lowly civilians can be negligent as well.

The thing that kills me the most about all these haters is why are you trying so hard to tear apart a gun organization whose purpose is to train and educated people about firearms. They are on our side, they want to save gun rights and they are trying to train people so they know how to safely use firearms and protect them selves. Sure there is probably other schools that are better, and I am sure FS is better than some as well. But that does not mean I am going to tear other schools apart because of crap I read on the net.

The school is not perfect, but that sure as heck does not mean a person cannot learn a ton and become a safer and more knowledgeable shooter. I had been shooting and hunting for 20 years before I took my first class there. I learned more about shooting that first class than I had my whole life. I am sure it would have been the same at many schools, but FS just happened to be the closest one to me so I bought in. I have not one single regret. I have spend a total of $6000 on two memberships for my wife and I, I can take every class they offer, she can take about 2/3s of them. At this point each class I take costs me less than $100 for tuition. Not to bad if you ask me. Many of the instructors or ex military and law enforcement who have real world experience in insight that they are able to teach us that may help us if were ever have to defend ourselves. IMO thats a great resource. Would I like to take a class from Clint Smith? Absolutely, and well as Vern Harrision. Hopefully someday I will be able to do that. But until then I will continue to attend front sight and learn new skills each time I go.

[OldCannon]

some of the folks on the forum here have spent a lot of actual time on the two-way range

That's a very interesting way to put it, well said!

After the 1st round zings past your ear,most people find out they aren't near as macho as they thought they were.

And sometimes, to our unexpected delight, we find we don't soil ourselves like we thought we might (rhyming was unintentional, but I'll leave it in there :-)

[baldeagle]

The thing that kills me the most about all these haters is why are you trying so hard to tear apart a gun organization whose purpose is to train and educated people about firearms.

I thought your response was very useful and helpful -- up until you wrote this.

I know very little about FS. I've seen their ads, and I've discussed with my wife whether she thought the course was worth the expense. (She didn't, because for me it would include the travel expenses in addition to the cost of the course.) I was completely unaware of the accidental shootings and the class action lawsuit. Frankly, those don't bother me much. Lots of businesses get sued, but that doesn't make me stop doing business with them if I think what they are selling has sufficient value to justify me paying them the money they are asking. The shootings also don't bother me. How many times have we read on this forum about a police officer who shot himself while practicing? Some people are very careful with firearms. Other people are not. It's not possible to watch every person in a class every minute.

The over-reaction of the "FS-defenders" to criticism does make me curious, though. Why the need to defend them in such emotional terms? Surely you can understand why some, like Hoi Polloi, might think that multiple accidental deaths and a class action lawsuit are justifiable reasons for being skeptical about the program?

It sounds like you have enjoyed the training as well as benefited from it. And I agree with you that the training has value, although perhaps not as much as some of the others who have been named. But I don't know that, because I don't know who any of these people are. I thank you for your comments about FS. I just wish you hadn't written the sentence that I quoted. It comes across as a personal attack on other members of the forum, even if that isn't how you meant it (and I don't think that you did.)