Giuseppe Verdi = Joe Green? Bruxelles = Brussels?

[Jusme]

One of the things I really appreciated when I first moved to Texas was the use of "sir" and "ma'am" when my wife and I were being addressed by young people or strangers. I think that formality is important because it is a sign of respect. It acknowledges to its object that he or she gets to set the terms of the relationship, by either keeping it formal, or permitting familiarity. Whenever I am treated with that kind of respect, I am very quick to allow familiarity. When I'm not conceded that respect, then I don't allow the familiarity.


I was raised that way here, and was promptly chastised if I addressed anyone in any other manner. I still do the same thing with everyone, whether they are my elder, or not. I have been told by folks from the northern states, mostly women, that they do not want to be addressed as ma'am, I tell them that my mother would get up out of her grave and "whoop" me if I addressed a lady in any other manner, so I will deal with your displeasure, more than I want to deal with disturbing my mother for having to make sure I was doing the right thing.

[mayor]

The capitol city of (communist) China was originally known as "Peiping", and later as "Beiping". When I was a boy, it was called "Peking"......which later became "Beijing". "Mao Tse-tung" became "Mao Zedong". "Gay" (happy) became "gay" (homosexual). "Good" became "bad", and "neato" became "awesome".

I could go on, but it would serve nothing. My greatest regret with the changes that occur in the language is not that there are changes......that has always been the case (we no longer speak Elizabethan English either).....it is that people have forgotten how to command the language, how to write, how to bend words to their will, how to express themselves eloquently, how to use the hidden entendre. I go on and on in many of my posts, and I guess it comes off as windy sometimes; but I love the language, and I like to use it like a paintbrush or a guitar. I regret the coarsening of the language, and the general loss of fluency that prevails.

whut he sed.

[Jusme]

The capitol city of (communist) China was originally known as "Peiping", and later as "Beiping". When I was a boy, it was called "Peking"......which later became "Beijing". "Mao Tse-tung" became "Mao Zedong". "Gay" (happy) became "gay" (homosexual). "Good" became "bad", and "neato" became "awesome".

I could go on, but it would serve nothing. My greatest regret with the changes that occur in the language is not that there are changes......that has always been the case (we no longer speak Elizabethan English either).....it is that people have forgotten how to command the language, how to write, how to bend words to their will, how to express themselves eloquently, how to use the hidden entendre. I go on and on in many of my posts, and I guess it comes off as windy sometimes; but I love the language, and I like to use it like a paintbrush or a guitar. I regret the coarsening of the language, and the general loss of fluency that prevails.

whut he sed.

And I think the process has sped up exponentially with the advent of texting, Twitter, etc, where abbreviations, and short phrases, become a normal part of speech. I actually had someone use the initials B-T-W in a conversation, I asked them if they knew that saying, "by the way", actually used fewer syllables? I got a toad frog in a hailstorm stare.

[bblhd672]

After reading this thread I'm reminded why I stick to traveling within the U.S. - sometimes it's hard enough to decipher all the U.S. english accents. I'm so grateful for being back in the south where people generally speak slow enough that I can understand them.

If the a problem arises some day my default will have to be not trusting anyone who doesn't speak good old American English.....

[The Annoyed Man]

Thus:

[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Germany" is "Germany", and not "Deutschland";
[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in German to another German-speaker, "Germany" is "Deutschland";

Interesting TAM. OK, let's forget about respect, accents, pronunciation, and all that. Changing the language and the name, and based on your list above, I gather that even though the man's given and family name is Jose Verde:

• To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Joe Green" is "Joe Green", and not "Jose Verde";
• To an English-speaking American speaking in Spanish to another Spanish-speaker, "Joe Green" is "Jose Verde"

I think not. I think Jose Verde is Jose Verde regardless of the language spoken. So, I'm still confused as to why the world does not change "peoples" name to suit the local language, but feel they must change "nations/cities" names to suit the local language. Perhaps I've got this all wrong, but I think that was the OP's original point.

Oh, and where's that Peiking Duck I ordered? I'm not buying this Beijing stuff.

You missed the part where I said that the Exonym/Entonym thingie applies to place names, not people names, which the OP was asking about.

In my previous post, I said that I agree that a person's name is exactly what they say it is, and I would never disrespect José Verde by calling him Joe Green, unless he said to me, "Friend, my friends call me Joe Green". And, consider this, in Spanish, José Verdes IS Joe Green. So, is a Spanish-speaker being disrespectful to José by addressing him as José?

In any event, I almost find the discussion in the context of personal names a little bizarre, because it would have never even occurred to me to call José anything other than José. I am the eldest of three brothers. My middle brother's name is Pierre (that toxic French influence in the family ) - which translates into English as Peter. Nobody calls him Peter. I have never called him Peter. He doesn't call himself Peter. He uses the nickname "Pi" when he signs his emails.....a contraction of Pierre. In grade school, he did have the nickname of "Dirty Pierre" (after a cartoon character of the day) for a period of time.........but then my dad was known behind his back to some of his Caltech students as "Dirty Dave" for his propensity to share the occasional risqué joke with them. In a tribute to our late father, my youngest brother Dave uses that sobriquet today in his email address.

All of that said, all y'all may call me "Conquistador". In fact, I insist on it.

[Jusme]

All of that said, all y'all may call me "Conquistador". In fact, I insist on it.


O.K from now on you will be known as TAC.

[G26ster]

All of that said, all y'all may call me "Conquistador". In fact, I insist on it.


O.K from now on you will be known as TAC.

Sorry Jusme. TAM's entonym may be "Conquistador" but my exonym in G26ster-ese demands that he be called "Mike." So, we're back to TAM

[The Annoyed Man]

The capitol city of (communist) China was originally known as "Peiping", and later as "Beiping". When I was a boy, it was called "Peking"......which later became "Beijing". "Mao Tse-tung" became "Mao Zedong". "Gay" (happy) became "gay" (homosexual). "Good" became "bad", and "neato" became "awesome".

I could go on, but it would serve nothing. My greatest regret with the changes that occur in the language is not that there are changes......that has always been the case (we no longer speak Elizabethan English either).....it is that people have forgotten how to command the language, how to write, how to bend words to their will, how to express themselves eloquently, how to use the hidden entendre. I go on and on in many of my posts, and I guess it comes off as windy sometimes; but I love the language, and I like to use it like a paintbrush or a guitar. I regret the coarsening of the language, and the general loss of fluency that prevails.

whut he sed.

And I think the process has sped up exponentially with the advent of texting, Twitter, etc, where abbreviations, and short phrases, become a normal part of speech. I actually had someone use the initials B-T-W in a conversation, I asked them if they knew that saying, "by the way", actually used fewer syllables? I got a toad frog in a hailstorm stare.

I was having a long post-sermon conversation with my pastor just last night about your point. He said we're dealing with a "soundbite culture".

[Vol Texan]

Thus:

[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Germany" is "Germany", and not "Deutschland";
[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in German to another German-speaker, "Germany" is "Deutschland";

Interesting TAM. OK, let's forget about respect, accents, pronunciation, and all that. Changing the language and the name, and based on your list above, I gather that even though the man's given and family name is Jose Verde:

• To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Joe Green" is "Joe Green", and not "Jose Verde";
• To an English-speaking American speaking in Spanish to another Spanish-speaker, "Joe Green" is "Jose Verde"

I think not. I think Jose Verde is Jose Verde regardless of the language spoken. So, I'm still confused as to why the world does not change "peoples" name to suit the local language, but feel they must change "nations/cities" names to suit the local language. Perhaps I've got this all wrong, but I think that was the OP's original point.

Oh, and where's that Peiking Duck I ordered? I'm not buying this Beijing stuff.

You missed the part where I said that the Exonym/Entonym thingie applies to place names, not people names, which the OP was asking about.

In my previous post, I said that I agree that a person's name is exactly what they say it is, and I would never disrespect José Verde by calling him Joe Green, unless he said to me, "Friend, my friends call me Joe Green". And, consider this, in Spanish, José Verdes IS Joe Green. So, is a Spanish-speaker being disrespectful to José by addressing him as José?

My wife says the same. She is Argentinean by birth, so her version of Spanish is a bit different from what many of you may be accustomed to. There are a few differences in words here or there (e.g. vos instead of tu), but one key difference is the pronunciation of the "double L" sound. To most Spanish speakers I've met in my life, the double L is a 'ya' sound (as in tortilla). But to my wife, the double L is a 'sh' sound. So yes, we eat tor-tee-shas instead of tor-tee-yas in our house. But when speaking a person's name, they default to the person's pronunciation rather than to hers. So Guillermo is gee-air-mo, rather than gee-sher-mo, unless that particular Guillermo is Argentinean as well.

[The Annoyed Man]

My head is beginning to hurt......

[Abraham]

I've created a monster...

[G26ster]

My head is beginning to hurt......

Sorry your head hurts TAM. Mine too, although I'm sure I contributed greatly to yours.

Here's why.

Abraham asked a simple question, "As an example: Guillermo supposedly (magically) is the equivalent of William. Giuseppe is the same as Joe. Juan is John. Place names like Munchen supposedly equal Munich. Huh? Why can't Munchen remain Munchen? And why is Firenze in English transformed into Florence. Why can't the actual names of these people and places be known for their actual names? So, why is it necessary for other foreign places and names to be converted?"

Answer given, "Exonyms/Entonyms" for places, not people. That explains the historical reasons, but not so much as to why it continues, as it pertains to places. After all, the world has moved on throughout history. The Earth does revolve around the sun, is not flat, and most of the world agreed on the metric system.

Enter pronunciations/accents, which have nothing to do with the original question. TO-MA-TO vs TO-MAH-TO. How does this answer the question? It doesn't.

So why is there one rule for people, and one rule for places. Makes no sense. If the world (or most of it) can agree on the metric system for example, why can't it agree to drop exonyms/entonyms? To me they serve no purpose other than to keep people in their comfort zones, language and culture wise.

The way I see it, if I established the country of G26sterland, within a week there would be 100 other names for it based on local language. In Spanish speaking countries it would probably be called "G Veintiséisia," or "Tierra de G26ster." And 99 other ways in other languages. If we can have one name for people worldwide, why can't we have one name for places that the one the local gov't gave it (If they are multilingual and gave it more than one name, we can pick one to use).

However, using the original language/pronunciation worldwide for persons can lead to trouble too. A young Jewish boy in the Bronx asked his mother how the family name came to be "Furgeson." The mother said that when Zaydeh (Grandfather) came through Rikers Island at the turn of the century he was very nervous, and when they asked him his name, he answered "Ikh Fergesen." So they wrote down "Ike Furgeson." Trouble is "Ikh Fergesen" in Yiddish means "I forget."

And Abraham, my apologies for keeping your monster alive

[der Teufel]

[Vol Texan]

Just remember this: nobody should refer to TAM in Spanish as EHM. El Hombre Molesto just don't sound right.

[Dadtodabone]

One of Signore Verdi's greatest hits!