Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response

[lunchbox]

im with you bro
besides i wouldnt even remember the address anyway

[pt145ss]

I plan on sending a letter (similar to the one below) to the City Manager.

Dear Sir,

I apologize to bother you with what might seem like a trivial matter to some, however, the issue has meaning to me and therefore I am presenting my questions and concerns to you.

First, let me preface my questions and concerns by saying that the Kyle officer involved in this traffic stop was courteous and professional, and my questions and concerns should in no way reflect other wise. I assume the officer was simply acting in accordance with policies set forth by the Kyle Police department and Kyle City Council. That being said, this past weekend, I was stopped by a Kyle police officer for an alleged speeding violation. After the officer informed me that he was going to issue me a citation, he began with a line of questioning which is the subject matter of this letter.

The officer first asked if I was employed, to which I promptly replied yes. The officer then asked where I was employed. At this point I became skeptical of the line of questioning as I have never been asked provide this type of information during a traffic stop before this incident. I reluctantly provided the officer with the name of my employer. The officer then asked for my employer’s phone number. At this point I stopped and asked the officer why he needed this information. The officer explained that the information is needed in the event that I do not pay the fines for the citation, as it gives the City of Kyle a means of collection. The side of the road in not the time or place to try and argue with the officer, so I reluctantly provided the information he requested which included my home telephone number.

This brings me to my questions and concerns. Is it the City of Kyle’s policy to ask such questions as described above? Are there any documents regarding this policy that might be made available via the Open Records Act? Can one refuse to answer such questions? What safeguards, if any, are in place to ensure that this information is not shared with anyone outside the City of Kyle?

After the traffic stop I felt as though my employment could be at risk over a simple alleged speeding violation. The line of questioning referenced above almost feels threatening and borderlines on Official Oppression.

Under normal circumstances, I would not give out my employer’s information, unless doing so is a direct benefit of my employer. My employer’s phone is to be used for business purposes only and is not a good place to call for collection purposes. Any attempt to make collection calls at my place of employment could be a violation of the Fair Debt and Collection Act.

Please note that I am not looking to take any legal action or anything or the sort at this time. I simply would like an explanation and/or justification as to why the City of Kyle engages in such questioning. I would like some assurances that the City of Kyle is not going to jeopardize my employment by calling me at my place of employment.

I know if we work together we can resolve this issue.

Sincerely,

Jim

[drw]

Great letter, Jim. I'd love to hear their response to your reasonable questions.

[gregthehand]

I would take the official oppression part out. It is nowhere near that. Now if you said you didn't want to give him the information and he took you to jail for that, or started beating on you or something than that is official oppression. He can ask you anything he wants, and that's legal, and it's your choice not to answer. It only becomes unlawful when he makes you answer and there is not statutory requirement to do so. Even then it would be easier to get him for violation of your civil rights. Most times official oppression is used when someone is put in jail for false reason and the cops knew they were innocent. Another example is if the cops rough you up or causes physical harm even though you were being totally compliant.

§ 39.03. OFFICIAL OPPRESSION.

(a) A public servant acting under color of his office or employment commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally subjects another to mistreatment or to arrest, detention, search, seizure, dispossession, assessment, or lien that he knows is unlawful;
(2) intentionally denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power, or immunity, knowing his conduct is unlawful; or
(3) intentionally subjects another to sexual harassment.

(b) For purposes of this section, a public servant acts under color of his office or employment if he acts or purports to act in an official capacity or takes advantage of such actual or purported capacity.

Othen than that I think it's a good letter.

[pt145ss]

Dear Mr. X:



Thank you for you recent inquiry regarding police practices.



As I understand your inquiry, you expressed concern regarding a police officer requesting employment address and telephone information in the completion of a citation that you recently received.



Being new to this particular region of Texas , I assigned a staff member to conduct a telephone survey of area agencies regarding their particular practices in requesting such information. I also made personal contact with City of Kyle Municipal Court regarding this practice.



I apologize for a delayed response to your inquiry, but I felt that proper research should be conducted to survey/benchmark Kyle PD practices with our contemporary peers in order to provide you factually accurate information.



In our findings, please know that the central Texas law enforcement community mirrors my knowledge and 30+ years of experience in three other regions of Texas wherein I served in a senior police management capacity.



In North Texas, the Rio Grande Valley , Houston , and in Central Texas , it is common practice to secure employment information when issuing a promise-to-appear citation.



As you may or may not be aware, police officers possess statutory authority to effect a custodial arrest for all minor traffic offenses, except speeding.



Police officers issue citations which include a signature blank for the violator to sign a “Promise to Appear�. Individuals with either no, or questionable identification, and/or those with a history of warrants indicating violation of promise to appear are typically incarcerated and required to post a cash bond.



According to the Municipal Court, over 50% of the citations issued in Kyle result in Failure to Appear (FTA) warrants wherein individuals did not adhere to their written promise to appear.



The employer information is secured as a means to contact an individual should an arrest warrant be issued FTA. It is not secured to advise your employer of your traffic stop, or provided to others, only and except when mandated by state law.



An arrest warrant is not civil collection; it is a violation of law. No law exempts individuals with active warrants from being arrested at their place of employment.



I trust that you will understand that City of Kyle practices are consistent with the accepted business practices of the profession.



Again, I wish to thank you for your inquiry. I also wish to thank you for your comments regarding the officer’s conduct.



Regards,



Michael Blake

Chief of Police

[flintknapper]

So....basically the Chief does not address the issue of whether or not it is legal, he just points out that it is a matter of policy (in keeping with other departments practices).

The premise here seems to be: If its common then it must be O.K.

Personally, I will decline to give any information that is not immediately needed by the officer (that which is on my drivers license). I have my own policies.

Naturally, I will be courteous and respectful.

[SkipB]

Well I haven't been in Police work sense 1989. First I never lied in court, never. Even back then we were required to get certain info on traffic citations. I always ask if the person was on any type of emergancy or had a reason to be going over the limit, and I always let them vent a bit if they wanted to. I always made notes on the back of a ticket to recall the event. Any time someone wanted to give me a hard time about doing my job and knowing I stopped them for a violation, I would just smile. I knew I was fixin to ruin their day.

[lunchbox]

Dear Mr. X:



Thank you for you recent inquiry regarding police practices.



As I understand your inquiry, you expressed concern regarding a police officer requesting employment address and telephone information in the completion of a citation that you recently received.



Being new to this particular region of Texas , I assigned a staff member to conduct a telephone survey of area agencies regarding their particular practices in requesting such information. I also made personal contact with City of Kyle Municipal Court regarding this practice.



I apologize for a delayed response to your inquiry, but I felt that proper research should be conducted to survey/benchmark Kyle PD practices with our contemporary peers in order to provide you factually accurate information.



In our findings, please know that the central Texas law enforcement community mirrors my knowledge and 30+ years of experience in three other regions of Texas wherein I served in a senior police management capacity.



In North Texas, the Rio Grande Valley , Houston , and in Central Texas , it is common practice to secure employment information when issuing a promise-to-appear citation.



As you may or may not be aware, police officers possess statutory authority to effect a custodial arrest for all minor traffic offenses, except speeding.



Police officers issue citations which include a signature blank for the violator to sign a “Promise to Appear�. Individuals with either no, or questionable identification, and/or those with a history of warrants indicating violation of promise to appear are typically incarcerated and required to post a cash bond.



According to the Municipal Court, over 50% of the citations issued in Kyle result in Failure to Appear (FTA) warrants wherein individuals did not adhere to their written promise to appear.



The employer information is secured as a means to contact an individual should an arrest warrant be issued FTA. It is not secured to advise your employer of your traffic stop, or provided to others, only and except when mandated by state law.



An arrest warrant is not civil collection; it is a violation of law. No law exempts individuals with active warrants from being arrested at their place of employment.



I trust that you will understand that City of Kyle practices are consistent with the accepted business practices of the profession.



Again, I wish to thank you for your inquiry. I also wish to thank you for your comments regarding the officer’s conduct.



Regards,



Michael Blake

Chief of Police

sounds like something Slick Willey would have said

[nitrogen]

Sounds like he's "saying without saying" that if you fail to provide this information, you will/may be arrested.

[lunchbox]

Sounds like he's "saying without saying" that if you fail to provide this information, you will/may be arrested.

yeah kinda of a just do what your told cuz we are the law

[SCone]

I'm telling you, the only way to handle this is by giving the officer your Legal Shield card.

It basically says, "If it your intention to detain, question or arrest me, I would like to contact my attorney immediately." Then it give the toll-free 24 hour access number.

having an attorney on speed-dial tends to put a halt to most stupidity.

[pt145ss]

I have a few thoughts about the Chief's response and I plan on emailing him back...but only after I get my thoughts in order and my ducks in a row.

Thought 1. I do not believe that Tx DPS, Travis County, or Austin PD asks for this information. I would like to confirm that...any suggestions on how? And should I even question him about that? Even if they do collect such information, my first thought is...just because others do it...it does not mean that Kyle PD should do it...nor does it mean that it is legal. The Chief said this is done so they can affect a failure to appear warrant at my place of employment...Can Kyle PD affect such a warrant outside their jurisdiction?

Thought 2. The Chief went on to say that an officer can effect a custodial arrest for minor traffic violation…except for speeding. I’m not sure why he says this and I do not know why there is an exception for speeding. Was I at any point considered as being under custodial arrest? Or was this a veil threat that by not answering the officer could effect a custodial arrest?

It is my understanding that both the Texas Criminal Court of Appeals and the US Supreme Court analogies a traffic stop to that of a Terry stop. As we all know, a Terry stop is characterized as a temporary detainment for the purposes of investigating a crime in which the officer has reasonable belief that a crime is being or about to be committed. This does not rise to the level of custodial arrest but one is not allowed to leave until the officer is done…or something to that affect. It is also my understanding that in most cases anything that is said during this investigative period does not fall under the protection and is not subject to Miranda. So…if I apply this to a traffic stop…then the officer had reasonable belief that I committed the offense of speeding and he pulled me over. During the investigative stage he asked questions and asked for ID. At some point he told me that he was going to issue me a citation…once he said he was going to issue me a citation…I assume the “investigative� portion of the stop was over and he had already made his determination. Because the investigation was over and I was still not free to leave…as he had not given me the citation yet…is this the point at which the stop is considered a custodial arrest? If so, should I have been mirandarized before asking me any other questions?

Thought 3. The Chief talked about no ID or questionable ID. I really doubt the Chief realizes that I gave 2 forms ID…my DL and my CHL both have true and identical information on it and therefore that scenario should not even be considered in this situation. Should I mention this fact in the email I plan to send him? Also, the thing about a history of failure to appear…first I have only had three moving violations in my driving career…including this latest one…the one prior was over 10 yrs ago.

I really need to get my head wrapped around this because it is obvious (as seen above) that I am having some issues articulating my thoughts about this.

[nitrogen]

Basically, what the chief means, is that the officer CAN arrest you for traffic violations. yes, he can drag you in, get you fingerprinted, etc.

99.95% of the time, in lieu of arrest, you sign a ticket, which is a promise to appear in court. What the chief I think is saying is, basically, "we want to guarantee you appear in court so we'll ask this information. Don't give it and we'll just arrest you, never mind that we'd probably let you go afterward, after arraignment for bail, and you could easily FTA after then, but we'd have a few hundred dollars of your money then."

[AEA]

I think it could be summed up in one sentence............

"You and other department's have policies in place that you follow regardless of the illegality of those policies".

[KD5NRH]

Thought 1. I do not believe that Tx DPS, Travis County, or Austin PD asks for this information. I would like to confirm that...any suggestions on how?

10-15 over should get you a good example to go by.

Also, the thing about a history of failure to appear…first I have only had three moving violations in my driving career…including this latest one…the one prior was over 10 yrs ago.

Clearly, they have some major issues with getting their customers to come back. Sounds like they need to work on their customer service issues, and the value they provide for their prices.