Militia standoff going on right now in Oregon!

[Bryanmc]

But make your own determination.

I'd prefer to see the medical examiner's determination before I make mine.

[G.A. Heath]

Lets add a new conspiracy to the mix...

What if LaVoy Finicum is a government plant and the "killing" was just a means of extracting him without revealing he was an agent? Imagine they were firing blanks at him while he wears radio controlled squibs setup in his clothes far in advance for just this situation. He feels the squibs go off so he falls over and plays dead...

Ok, I'm just kidding, lets wait until we get more info before deciding anything.

[mojo84]

Lets add a new conspiracy to the mix...

What if LaVoy Finicum is a government plant and the "killing" was just a means of extracting him without revealing he was an agent? Imagine they were firing blanks at him while he wears radio controlled squibs setup in his clothes far in advance for just this situation. He feels the squibs go off so he falls over and plays dead...

Ok, I'm just kidding, lets wait until we get more info before deciding anything.

I think you are on to something. If we can imagine the conspiracy it must be true.

[VMI77]

Detailed analysis by the weaponsman: http://weaponsman.com/?p=29146

He's generally pretty objective about incidents like this and I agree with his analysis about 100%. Some excerpts:

1. We have said several times before, when Officer Friendly decides you’re going downtown, you’re going downtown. Further resistance at that point is not only futile, it just means you’re going downtown with a few lumps at best, or at the worst, going downtown to the morgue instead of the jail — as Finicum does.

2. Without the audio, we can’t be sure who fired first. It could be any of three men in the video, or someone off screen.

3. We can’t be sure whether Finicum drew or moved to draw first, or whether he did that in reaction to being shot at or shot.
His hands were up at first, they went down it seems to keep his balance, and that seems to be when the officers lit him up, but we can’t be sure. (To the officers, at the time, this may have looked like he was going for a gun. In the overhead video it doesn’t look like that, but the guys on the scene didn’t have eyes on the overhead video, they had eyes on Finicum a mere three or four yards away.

4. We don’t know if Finicum fired, but it seems unlikely. Whether he took shots before he attempted to draw, once he starts he’s clearly taking hits.
We don’t know how many agents or officers fired, and how many shots. For reasons known only to the FBI, they’re sitting on that information. (most likely working out whether it’s better to bury it for good, or if it will be released, how to spin it. One of their concerns here will be the criminal cases against the truck passengers, and the jury pool. The jury pool’s probably not much of a concern, because they’ve set it up that the jurors will be predominantly from metro Portland).

5. It appears that two or three agents or officers engaged Finicum: one with a pistol who had been on the flank, one with a shoulder weapon who had come up onto the snow, and possibly one who was at the fender of one of the roadblock trucks. Others may have fired as well, but these three are the closest.

6. The left-handed officer who had been on the flank and fired down the hill fired directly towards his own guys. This may have caused the guys at the truck to think Finicum was engaging them, and they were taking incoming. (Well, they were taking incoming, albeit from their own guy. Which they might or might not have noticed).

There are some lessons learned here:

1. If you provoke an armed encounter with the authorities, you’re going to get an armed encounter with the authorities. They can’t and won’t back down; they understand that any loss of face risks a collapse in the social order, so they will meet such a challenge every time.
2. Cue the late Bobby Fuller: LaVoy Finicum fought the law, and the law won. Regardless of who did what, he’s still dead, and there were many times he could have made a decision that would not have left him dead, regardless of what the FBI did or intended. (Except for the occasional sociopath who slips through, and contrary to what a lot of Bundy supporters seem to think about them, Special Agents are not fangs-out hoping to kill anybody).
3. The FBI, and most agencies, need more post-shooting transparency. Don’t believe us? Mental exercise: this shootout happens in Chicago or NYFC, and LaVoy and his crew are black gangbangers. What would The Reverends be saying by now? How would the Post and the Times be covering it? In this case, the Bureau lucks out: the national media sympathize with the FBI because the criminals are the media’s favorite boogeymen. Ask Wilson Goode what the media does when the criminal movement (in his case, MOVE) are minority members and your cops whack ’em.
4. Absence of information (and media fabrications to fill the 24-hour news cycle in this absence) is the fertilizer that makes conspiracy theories grow. Conspiracy theories lead to people’s estrangement from ordinary society. Estrangement leads to “compounds” and standoffs. If you’re The Law®. you should want to disincentivize that process of estrangement and incentivize normal, rational paths of dispute resolution.
5. Administrative law is increasingly looking lawless, with its administrative “courts” a rubber stamp, not a normal, rational path of dispute resolution.

People in the East (ourselves included) have little appreciation for the degree to which the people of the rural West find themselves at odds with the managers of Federal agencies like the BLM and the EPA. Those agencies have eastern, urban, even Luddite values, values that are foreign and inimical to the agricultural and extractive industries on which so many Western livelihoods depend. The agencies’ managers, based always in the Imperial City of Washington and fully socialized to Washington values, radiate contempt for their de facto serfs.

[parabelum]

I am posting additional updates, since this dead Patriot cannot post for himself.

"The only reason he drove off was because he was being fired at so he drove off so he didn’t get shot. There’s two rounds in the top of his truck that they were able to photograph. That’s why he drove off and tried to get around there because he was afraid they were going to kill him. And he was right.”

The FBI’s claim is further called into question after seeing what Davis wrote on Facebook about the serial number. Apparently, members of the Pacific Patriots Network were able to run the serial number 54119868, and the weapon was stolen two years ago, so she believes it’s a plant."

http://www.americasfreedomfighters.com/ ... ge-oregon/

[parabelum]

But make your own determination.

I'd prefer to see the medical examiner's determination before I make mine.

I understand that many posts, links, and analysis relevant to this event have not been promulgated and approved by the Federal powers to be, however, to discredit one without providing an substantive alternative does great disservice not only to the fallen, but to the citizens who are genuinely concerned about this.
in addition, this creates and propels further the distrust that so many have in the Feds.

I've spent 6 years in the war zone. I've seen combat operations, hostage situations, prisoner exchanges, dirty deals, clean deals, no deals etc. Stuff can get blurry quickly, I get it.
I have also seen SOP's for FF/EMT responses, contingency planning, public relation and legal dealings to name few. I know these can be very specific and very impractical at times, I get it.

As someone who has supported LE on all fronts, with family and friends in LE and military, as someone who loves this country and who wants to see us lift from this cloud of distrust created by this administration, I want to believe that my government officials did not act like mobsters here, to that extent, I and so many others, need people who are close and personal to the "inside" to offer a realistic, pragmatic opinion as to what the heck happened here.

I'm not alone on this. As stated earlier, every LE contact I have echoed that something isn't right here. We can start dissecting line by line the litany of discrepancies that We the People have been fed, but it appears that there is no interest in that (NOT isolating you or anyone else on here, but in general, propaganda is to hush it).
I get the caution flag for preemptive speculation, but, not discussing this at all feeds into distrust more each day.


Do you or anyone in this country want to live in a place where political dissidents are nixed like that? Could be me next, could be you, my children or yours... It's a rhetorical question.

I respect (as stated earlier) your service, and of course, I do not wish to jeopardize your pension over you expressing your opinion on this matter one way or another.

Just wanted to be clear that I am not just blowing hot air on here.

[G.A. Heath]

I agree that something isn't right, but I have to say that is the case for both sides because we have not seen the evidence.

First off, if even a half wit planned to murder someone in that manner they would leave no witnesses. They would have pre-planned and had video ready to be made read and released to match the crime scene. That video would show an intense gunfight initiated by the suspects and then ended by law enforcement or possibly with suicide. Of course the video recording would be from a "safe distance" and would not clearly show the suspects clearly so that identification would be difficult/impossible (After all you would be using actors in the video). I agree that the video we have seen does not pass the smell test but there is not enough information one way or the other at this time.

Until I see evidence all I am seeing is two children pointing fingers and telling mom and dad "It's their fault" and "But they started it" ...

[parabelum]

"BEND – An FBI agent is suspected of lying about firing twice at Robert "LaVoy" Finicium and may have gotten help from four other FBI agents in covering up afterward, authorities revealed Tuesday."

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... s_und.html

[anygunanywhere]

"BEND – An FBI agent is suspected of lying about firing twice at Robert "LaVoy" Finicium and may have gotten help from four other FBI agents in covering up afterward, authorities revealed Tuesday."

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... s_und.html

I'm shocked! Shocked I say!

Lots of us knew this already, but the government and the complicit media are out to paint everyone involved as terrorists. The Oregon affair was a mess from the very beginning, and Oath Keepers were there to attempt to persuade them to end the thing as it was a failure from the beginning, not well thought out, and the players had no firm objective and were not really reliable. OK were there to prevent another killing but unfortunately were not able to intervene when the vehicles were ambushed.

After the Oregon thing ended the feebs moved in on and arrested 14 men who were involved in the Bundy Ranch affair. One is an Oath Keeper. They are all being held on charges trumped up under Un-Patriot Act provisions.

The government as a whole and the BLM in particular are on a drive to confiscate land from citizens, among other atrocities.

Just add Malheur Oregon to Waco and Ruby Ridge.

[anygunanywhere]

WARNING: This video contains graphic footage.

Investigators release synced video of LaVoy Finicum traffic stop and shooting, March 8, 2016.
Courtesy Central Oregon Major Incident Team

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw9sfuFGghY

[parabelum]

WARNING: This video contains graphic footage.

Investigators release synced video of LaVoy Finicum traffic stop and shooting, March 8, 2016.
Courtesy Central Oregon Major Incident Team

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw9sfuFGghY

Thank you for posting that video.

[mojo84]

I only watch the synchronized video once but I saw nothing that supports the allegations that he was "slaughtered", "murdered" or "executed". He had broken the law and was a fugitive. He was known to be armed and had repeated to the officers he would not be taken alive and challenged them to shoot him. He refused multiple demands to exit the vehicle. He evaded arrest by not stopping and then running. He didn't surrender or comply with commands once out of the vehicle. He thought he could demand and dictate how the situation was going to be handled. All that and many still want to blame the government, agents and officers. It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

As far as as the children in the vehicle, shame on him for endangering their lives like he did. This whole thing could have been avoided if they hadn't illegally taken over the building and if he hadn't evaded arrest. Whether or not we like it or agree, we have to acknowledge authority and comply at times. He brought this on himself even if some of the officers or agents did made mistakes.

I do not like or agree with the government/BLM on the land issues. However, even though the cause may be righteous, their means were not. Taking over and occupying a government building is not the right way to handle it and any 3rd grader or above should be able to predict that strategy is not going to end well.


http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... stiga.html

[parabelum]

I only watch the synchronized video once but I saw nothing that supports the allegations that he was "slaughtered", "murdered" or "executed". He had broken the law and was a fugitive. He was known to be armed and had repeated to the officers he would not be taken alive and challenged them to shoot him. He refused multiple demands to exit the vehicle. He evaded arrest by not stopping and then running. He didn't surrender or comply with commands once out of the vehicle. He thought he could demand and dictate how the situation was going to be handled. All that and many still want to blame the government, agents and officers. It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

As far as as the children in the vehicle, shame on him for endangering their lives like he did. This whole thing could have been avoided if they hadn't illegally taken over the building and if he hadn't evaded arrest. Whether or not we like it or agree, we have to acknowledge authority and comply at times. He brought this on himself even if some of the officers or agents did made mistakes.

I do not like or agree with the government/BLM on the land issues. However, even though the cause may be righteous, their means were not. Taking over and occupying a government building is not the right way to handle it and any 3rd grader or above should be able to predict that strategy is not going to end well.


http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... stiga.html

He was on his way to peacefully talk with officials and this was unnecessary.

Grant County Sheriff backed up that this was an ambush, and he actually met with him before, these people were not the thugs they like you to believe.

These people were treated like dogs because they are white Christian patriots.

[anygunanywhere]

If the law enforcement did nothing wrong why is it that the information the FBI HRT fired at the vehicle when there was not threat just now coming out? The feds are covering something up. Why did the cops continue to shoot when the other victims were trying to stay under cover in the vehicle?

If they did nothing wrong why are they covering it up?

[mojo84]

I didn't say they did nothing wrong. I believe I acknowledged they made mistakes. Why only look at what the police did wrong?

Why would they release the tapes of they were covering up something?