Shooting at Twin Peaks in Waco

[mojo84]

SS, this may say it in a way you can relate to better.

http://www.rcvsmc.net/id8.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This information is to educate you on the outlaw 1%er lifestyle, not to scare you away from riding. (And remember, please think before you respond to anything, don't do any bashing of anyone or any club on the e groups, forums or at any bars.) First off, the likelihood of anyone getting into a scrape with outlaws/1%er”s is slim to none unless you frequent their bars or hangouts. But make no mistake, this is very real. Since most bike clubs are “NOT” outlaw clubs, they will have no issue with you as long as you stay out of their “business” and follow biker protocol. There is rarely a problem at a public event or poker run but it is always possible. So lets start with the "Rocker" you hear about. The rocker is in the form of a half moon, for lack of a better term. Similar to the bottom of a rocking chair. If you think about it, you have all seen photos of "Hells Angels" and the way the patches are arched above and below the center patch. MC (Motorcycle Club) patch and the 1% diamond will also be found on their Cut (also referred to as Colors). There are also many other patches some clubs wear that only mean something to that particular club.

The 1% diamond is the key to identifying a 1%er. It is a patch in the shape of a diamond with “1%” on it. That is mostly worn on the left shoulder but is seen on the back of their colors also. They, (1%er's) ride mostly Harley’s only, along with their support clubs and almost all outlaw clubs, but that's another story. Flying a certain style of patch on the back of colors is how the outlaws identify who is or is not claiming territory. Territory is a huge issue and they will fight and/or kill over it if it comes to that. It’s just “Business”. The rocker or the bar style patch is not acceptable to 1%er's unless approved by them. And just because an M/C club wears “Rocker” or “Bar” style patch’s that doesn’t make them an outlaw club. You just have to learn who is who but your officers should have some knowledge on that.

As I said, most clubs are not outlaw clubs and don’t wear a top and bottom rocker. They may have a top rocker but if they have a bottom patch it will not have State, City or County wording on it , many times it will be the member’s road name. For example any club in Texas (unless it’s grand fathered by the Bandido’s) that’s not affiliated with Bandidos, (and other than a police club) are not allowed to fly the "Texas" patch ("Bar" or "Rocker") on the back. They have even forced some police clubs to remove the Texas rocker. Also, 99% of Bandido support clubs cannot wear Texas on the back. The Bandidos claim that right as an MC (Motorcycle Club) and will aggressively approach you if you are seen wearing it on the back of your colors. Most states have its dominant 1% club where the same rule applies. The Bandidos are the dominant club in Texas as well as several other states.

They STILL have no LEGAL authority to enforce this, and therefore, all of their enforcement efforts are a gang-related criminal activity. Any POLICE club that removed their rockers were guilty of a giant FAIL.

Until someone can show me where the Banditos have LEGAL exclusive use of this rocker, as recognized under copyright or other law, I will continue to maintain that they would be a criminal gang for enforcing their claim, even if they were guilty of no other crimes.

The quoted article sounds like another apologist. I hate apologists.

I agree 100%. They do not have any legal right or authority. I do not condone it and I do not believe people should be subjected to their "rules". I only posted that to show what goes on in reality and what that subculture does. That's why I have ZERO sympathy for the thugs that were killed or the one's that are in jail. If people chose that lifestyle and to run with those people, they accept all the consequences.

I ask again, weren't the Cossacks doing exactly what you say should be done, standing up for their rights?

Show me the exact quote you are referencing.

[ShootDontTalk]

then I guess we won't be seeing you on the line. However, the families that I personally have interacted with - the families of those heroes you mentioned - have a different view.

For what it's worth, we also suppress our constitutional rights to respond to the "protestors" when they show up; again for the same reason. Disrupting a funeral would be counter to the mission.

No you won't. Not any more. You might see me there standing among ordinary Americans paying tribute to someone who fought for our freedom. You might see me there reading Scripture, praying, or even saluting. No disrespect, but the PGR is not the only group of people who pay respects at funerals and homecomings.

I have two problems here. First, voluntarily suppressing the "right" to not "respond" to (and I don't even want to know what that means) the "protestors" is hardly the same as voluntarily giving in to a criminal motorcycle gang and its demands. Withholding my rights are significantly different from surrendering them to a criminal element.

And two. Please don't take this personally, I believe you heart is good from everything you've written. BUT IF the media ever learn that the PGR, the "defenders of freedom", go to the Bandidos (who you say run the CoC) and submit to their demands over a patch - which seems to be the underlying reason for the shootout in Waco, they won't paint the PGR as heroes, they will be painted into the same corner as every other OMG. Not that what the media says will be right mind you, but the media does not care about the facts. The Bible says to "avoid every appearance of evil". Associating with evil has risks. Most are contrary to the mission.

I am not saying anyone here approves of the lifestyle. I do say that I have certain priorities in my life that I have set. I have to constantly reevaluate my priorities. I have principles that are inviolate.

I think I've said all I'm going to say.

[mojo84]

Here's some info on the CoC.


http://txcocinews.org/notes-from-our-leaders.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://txcocinews.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Oldgringo]

ShootDontTalk wrote:
{snip}
"avoid every appearance of evil"
{snip}

Yep, that's what my dear old Mother (RIP) taught me a long time ago.

[ScooterSissy]

...
I have two problems here. First, voluntarily suppressing the "right" to not "respond" to (and I don't even want to know what that means) the "protestors" is hardly the same as voluntarily giving in to a criminal motorcycle gang and its demands. Withholding my rights are significantly different from surrendering them to a criminal element.

And two. Please don't take this personally, I believe you heart is good from everything you've written. BUT IF the media ever learn that the PGR, the "defenders of freedom", go to the Bandidos (who you say run the CoC) and submit to their demands over a patch - which seems to be the underlying reason for the shootout in Waco, they won't paint the PGR as heroes, they will be painted into the same corner as every other OMG. Not that what the media says will be right mind you, but the media does not care about the facts. The Bible says to "avoid every appearance of evil". Associating with evil has risks. Most are contrary to the mission.

Much like the backpatch, PGR members have been asked not to respond to protestors (leadership asking us not to exercise free speech), and not to interact with the press. I don't see asking us not to wear a backpatch to be any different. We are there for one specific purpose, and wearing decorations isn't a necessary part.

Don't know how I communicated that the PGR met with a CoC, but didn't mean to. That hasn't happened that I'm aware of. The communication back in 2009 was from the CoC to a state leader, but wasn't a CoC meeting. Also, the PGR are not "defenders of freedom", and I don't think I said the Bandidos run the CoC, that was someone else (it may be true, but it didn't come from me). The PGR does not strive to be "heros". They strive to pay honor and respect to fallen veterans and first responders.

It's probably also worth mentioning that the CoC isn't all MCs, some are independent riders, some are RCs, even Christian organizations.

[ShootDontTalk]

Much like the backpatch, PGR members have been asked not to respond to protestors (leadership asking us not to exercise free speech), and not to interact with the press. I don't see asking us not to wear a backpatch to be any different. We are there for one specific purpose, and wearing decorations isn't a necessary part.

Really? You don't see a difference between an organization that you joined of your own free will asking you to refrain from something-in this case verbally confronting protestors under threat of kicking you out of the organization-between that and a gang of criminals TELLING your organization, and by extension you and your family, that if you wear a piece of cloth that has the word Texas on it that they will beat or kill you? Which is exactly the punishment meted out at Twin Peaks?

Seriously, you really don't see any difference? Tell me how you feel about armed carjackers?

Sorry. That really is my last word. This discussion is going in circles.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't give a cup of warm spit for what someone else says I can wear, and frankly, I think it is shameful that anyone would be an apologist for this kind of crap. Someone is going to tell me that a club of dirtbags with a membership of only 2300 (worldwide) gets to tell a state with 27 MILLION people what they can and can't wear? That dog won't hunt, and shame on anybody who says that it should.

TAM, please look back and see where I said "should". If I did, it was a typo. I'm talking about the way things are, not the way they should be.

It's interesting, seems most folks on here have the attitude that the Cossacks, the MC that had the most die, were "scum" or "thugs"; yet this is the very attitude they had, and was largely the reason they've been at "war" with the Bandidos, and had 7 or 8 of their members die - the attitude that no one was going to tell them what rocker they could wear.

Now, are we suddenly going to see a change in attitude from forum members, and see them pronounced heroes for standing up for what they believe?

The "dirtbags" I referenced were the Banditos, which the article I quoted described as having a membership of 2300 "worldwide". I never referenced the Cossaks, who, by my reconning came to make peace. Re read my post.

The state of Texas has never granted the Banditos a charter to collect a fee for the privilege of putting a Texas rocker on their colors. Therefore, when they extort a fee backed up by an implied (and apparently quite real) threat of violence for "permission" to wear the rocker, that makes them a true criminal enterprise.......even if they never ran guns or sold drugs or murdered rivals, or any of the other crimes of which they are suspected. They have no LEGAL authority to demand or collect the fee, and they have no LEGAL authority to enforce their claim. That makes them a criminal gang. Period.

Near as I can tell, while the Cossaks may not be sweet little angels, they are willing to live and let live. As a philosophical libertarian, I say good for them. But, until the state grants them exclusive use of the word "Texas" on a rocker and authority to restrict its use, the Banditos club needs to be eradicated......just like any other criminal organization.

While I might agree that by the power of state violence it may be able to grant such authority or forcefully restrict such usage, the state has no more right to enforce such a claim than you or I. The State is not a private entity that can claim a trademark or copyright or patent.

I see your point, but if even the state has no authority to restrict it, then for SURE the Banditos don't.

[ScooterSissy]

Much like the backpatch, PGR members have been asked not to respond to protestors (leadership asking us not to exercise free speech), and not to interact with the press. I don't see asking us not to wear a backpatch to be any different. We are there for one specific purpose, and wearing decorations isn't a necessary part.

Really? You don't see a difference between an organization that you joined of your own free will asking you to refrain from something-in this case verbally confronting protestors under threat of kicking you out of the organization-between that and a gang of criminals TELLING your organization, and by extension you and your family, that if you wear a piece of cloth that has the word Texas on it that they will beat or kill you? Which is exactly the punishment meted out at Twin Peaks?

Seriously, you really don't see any difference? Tell me how you feel about armed carjackers?

Sorry. That really is my last word. This discussion is going in circles.

Why ask a question, then say it's your last word?
To answer your question - no criminal asked or told me to do anything. The PGR leadership did, and they did that with the mission in mind. They also asked us as members, not to interact with protestors, for the same reason. Both are "intrusions" on our rights. Both requests were done to ensure that funerals, and our mission, are not disrupted. I hope you see that. I also trust you see that both are requesting people put aside their "rights" for a better purpose.

I'll also note that both are reactions to thugs, though they may be thugs of a different sort. We know the type of intimidation that the outlaw MCs use. The Phelps crew uses their own intimidation and tactics - that being they goad people during their "protests", then sue them when they react.

To the best of my knowledge, no member of the PGR has ever been asked to leave the organization for wearing a backpatch in Oklahoma. It wasn't a dictate (the organization does not work that way), it was a request. Also, to the best of my knowledge, no PGR has ever been asked to leave for interacting with Westboro. That's because most of the membership honor the request.
=====
Edited to add - my "don't see ... any different" was applied to leadership asking us, and their (leader's) motivations. It has nothing to do with my feelings about the actions of the MCs (which I believe are wrong).

My feelings about carjackers - no different than my feelings about MCs that use fear to intimidate, they're wrong.

[VMI77]

I don't give a cup of warm spit for what someone else says I can wear, and frankly, I think it is shameful that anyone would be an apologist for this kind of crap. Someone is going to tell me that a club of dirtbags with a membership of only 2300 (worldwide) gets to tell a state with 27 MILLION people what they can and can't wear? That dog won't hunt, and shame on anybody who says that it should.

TAM, please look back and see where I said "should". If I did, it was a typo. I'm talking about the way things are, not the way they should be.

It's interesting, seems most folks on here have the attitude that the Cossacks, the MC that had the most die, were "scum" or "thugs"; yet this is the very attitude they had, and was largely the reason they've been at "war" with the Bandidos, and had 7 or 8 of their members die - the attitude that no one was going to tell them what rocker they could wear.

Now, are we suddenly going to see a change in attitude from forum members, and see them pronounced heroes for standing up for what they believe?

The "dirtbags" I referenced were the Banditos, which the article I quoted described as having a membership of 2300 "worldwide". I never referenced the Cossaks, who, by my reconning came to make peace. Re read my post.

The state of Texas has never granted the Banditos a charter to collect a fee for the privilege of putting a Texas rocker on their colors. Therefore, when they extort a fee backed up by an implied (and apparently quite real) threat of violence for "permission" to wear the rocker, that makes them a true criminal enterprise.......even if they never ran guns or sold drugs or murdered rivals, or any of the other crimes of which they are suspected. They have no LEGAL authority to demand or collect the fee, and they have no LEGAL authority to enforce their claim. That makes them a criminal gang. Period.

Near as I can tell, while the Cossaks may not be sweet little angels, they are willing to live and let live. As a philosophical libertarian, I say good for them. But, until the state grants them exclusive use of the word "Texas" on a rocker and authority to restrict its use, the Banditos club needs to be eradicated......just like any other criminal organization.

While I might agree that by the power of state violence it may be able to grant such authority or forcefully restrict such usage, the state has no more right to enforce such a claim than you or I. The State is not a private entity that can claim a trademark or copyright or patent.

I see your point, but if even the state has no authority to restrict it, then for SURE the Banditos don't.

Of course. There are two issues as I see it.....what can the State do in the current legal context and what can an individual do, and what is right philosophically and morally. An individual (or group of individuals) has no right to tell me what I can or can't wear on my clothing (except perhaps to the extent I may voluntarily find myself on their property). As I understand the law, a government entity cannot currently claim a trademark, copyright, or patent. The law could be changed but that wouldn't make it right. Morally and philosophically I reject the notion that the State can authorize or franchise or grant a right to another private party to restrict or curtail my inherent rights. However, I recognize that the State has the power to act wrongly and immorally.

[ddstuder]

https://www.facebook.com/NCOM.Christian ... 22?fref=nf



DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A MEETING OF ORGANIZED CRIMINALS?
Here is a typical May Central Texas COC&I agenda:

1. Opening Prayer (a pastor of a church from Austin would have prayed).
2. Pledge of allegiance to the American flag.
3. Reports from the chairman from the recent meeting at the National Coalition of Motorcyclist annual convention.
4. Reports from the Legislative Task Force regarding current legislation affecting motorcyclist.
5. Reports from Safety and Awareness committee.
(May is Motorcycle Safety and Awareness month, so there would have been extensive talk about upcoming meeting with City officials around the area for Motorcycle Safety and Awareness Proclamations)
6. Closing remarks
7. Closing devotional remarks and prayer
That is about it. No talk about club business or issues are conducted at a COC&I meeting. In fact, it is common for there to be an announcement that if anyone has issues with anyone else, this is not the place for that, so take it elsewhere.
All clubs as well as those who ride, but do not wear a patch, are invited to attend.

[ScooterSissy]

https://www.facebook.com/NCOM.Christian ... 22?fref=nf



DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A MEETING OF ORGANIZED CRIMINALS?
Here is a typical May Central Texas COC&I agenda:

1. Opening Prayer (a pastor of a church from Austin would have prayed).
2. Pledge of allegiance to the American flag.
3. Reports from the chairman from the recent meeting at the National Coalition of Motorcyclist annual convention.
4. Reports from the Legislative Task Force regarding current legislation affecting motorcyclist.
5. Reports from Safety and Awareness committee.
(May is Motorcycle Safety and Awareness month, so there would have been extensive talk about upcoming meeting with City officials around the area for Motorcycle Safety and Awareness Proclamations)
6. Closing remarks
7. Closing devotional remarks and prayer
That is about it. No talk about club business or issues are conducted at a COC&I meeting. In fact, it is common for there to be an announcement that if anyone has issues with anyone else, this is not the place for that, so take it elsewhere.
All clubs as well as those who ride, but do not wear a patch, are invited to attend.

Thank you for that!!! There are some here, who will undoubtedly state that because the CoC is currently (and, admittedly, OFTEN) headed by a member of an outlaw MC, that somehow makes it an outlaw organization. I disagree. Such a viewpoint would undoubtedly also mean that anyone involved in organized politics are outlaws, since we know that group is full of criminals...

[ddstuder]

The power of Prayer is the most powerful weapon of all!

200 citizens in attendance, 170 jailed, 9 murdered and 18 wounded. That means 3 people got away without incident.

What happens when they come after your hobby/passion?

What if they raided the first 200 people parked in a Walmart? How many weapons would be on person, or in vehicles?

If some broke the law, by all means prosecute harshly, but if they have not been charged after 10+ days, LET THEM GO!

[ScooterSissy]

The power of Prayer is the most powerful weapon of all!

200 citizens in attendance, 170 jailed, 9 murdered and 18 wounded. That means 3 people got away without incident.

What happens when they come after your hobby/passion?

What if they raided the first 200 people parked in a Walmart? How many weapons would be on person, or in vehicles?

If some broke the law, by all means prosecute harshly, but if they have not been charged after 10+ days, LET THEM GO!

To be fair, the way I heard the story was that the 200+ were already inside, when another group rode up. That group wasn't part of the 200+ that were inside, and never made it inside. Don't know the truth, but I tend to believe the source I got it from.

[carlson1]

As a Pastor I would not be at a "meeting" conducting prayer when I should be in my Church conducting a service at Noon on Sunday. I want even mention the type of dive this meeting was being held in.

I have been ask to conduct prayer before meetings, but never during what would be our normal church schedule.

[ScooterSissy]

As a Pastor I would not be at a "meeting" conducting prayer when I should be in my Church conducting a service at Noon on Sunday. I want even mention the type of dive this meeting was being held in.

I have been ask to conduct prayer before meetings, but never during what would be our normal church schedule.

Some churches have multiple pastors. My wife is a pastor at our church. She's not on staff, but is licensed and thus listed as a pastor. She is often called on to do duties outside of the church.