Are Liberals Coming Here To Change Minds?

[cheezit]

what makes you think all liberals voted or voted for obama. thats like saying 100% of the nra members are repub's. or that 100% of jpfo members are jew's.
i guess thats up to you to belive or not.

[chasfm11]

Sure. At least, a lot of them that hang out at a particular liberal gun forum. I had to laugh recently when one person complained that he could no longer tell the difference between the posts at the liberal and the conservative forums, at least in terms of gun control. That particular forum allows for a wide range of opinions. Some are OK with registration, AWB, high-cap mag bans. Others oppose it vociferously. There are also democratic lawmakers who have decent ratings by NRA, and it's not hard to find one that supports 2A if you look hard, particularly in the southern and mid-western states.
I know that's outside the stereotype, and when we spend all of our time within an echo chamber, it becomes hard to believe there are other voices because we become so used to hearing only one.
See for yourself:
http://occupy2a.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... 40&t=17506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... 40&t=17214" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a small sample. One recent reply from a liberal was how glad he was that the House was controlled by Republicans right now, since that would mean likely failure of any attempts to impose significant gun restrictions.

Thanks for sharing those links. I read through each of them. I can see the Liberal leanings on several non-gun related matters but didn't find any of the leanings to be a far down the Progressive road as I'm used to hearing. There were definitely some areas where I'm perhaps not as Conservative as the others that they were talking about.

I'm pleased to hear non-Conservative voices with such strong 2nd Amendment support. I fear that they are a minority within their own crowd.

[G26ster]

what makes you think all liberals voted or voted for obama. thats like saying 100% of the nra members are repub's. or that 100% of jpfo members are jew's.
i guess thats up to you to belive or not.

The questions were for vociferous pro 2A liberals that did vote for liberals. If they didn't, then the question is not for them. That is why I said, "Are they saying they regret voting for liberals, and will not do so in the future?"

[VMI77]

leaning nither left or right and being from cali. i can assure you there are plenty of libs that are pro 2a.

It's very comforting to lump all "liberals" into the anti-gun group, but that is just a convenient shorthand fantasy that has no basis in fact. There are anti-gun liberals and there are pro-2A liberals. There is an entire forum devoted to those 2A supporting progressives. I know, I know. Some people's heads will explode just trying to grasp that reality. LOL!

Seriously, though. Just as all conservatives are not the same (e.g., recent Support by some Republicans for gun control), there are some liberals who staunchly support the 2nd A.

There are always exceptions. The point is that the vast majority of liberals are anti gun and anti self-defense, and a minority of "conservatives" are anti-gun and anti self-defense. It matters very little to me if 10 out of every 100 liberals are pro-gun, because they are beholden to a party that is anti-gun, and their pro gun beliefs are largely irrelevant. I also don't care that 10 out of very 100 "conservatives" are anti-gun, because they also are largely irrelevant. It's like saying some dogs can walk on two legs.The minorities in both parties have no power to influence the politics of the 2nd Amendment as long as they continue to support their respective parties in spite of their behavior on gun control.

[RiverCity.45]

leaning nither left or right and being from cali. i can assure you there are plenty of libs that are pro 2a.

It's very comforting to lump all "liberals" into the anti-gun group, but that is just a convenient shorthand fantasy that has no basis in fact. There are anti-gun liberals and there are pro-2A liberals. There is an entire forum devoted to those 2A supporting progressives. I know, I know. Some people's heads will explode just trying to grasp that reality. LOL!

Seriously, though. Just as all conservatives are not the same (e.g., recent Support by some Republicans for gun control), there are some liberals who staunchly support the 2nd A.

There are always exceptions. The point is that the vast majority of liberals are anti gun and anti self-defense, and a minority of "conservatives" are anti-gun and anti self-defense. It matters very little to me if 10 out of every 100 liberals are pro-gun, because they are beholden to a party that is anti-gun, and their pro gun beliefs are largely irrelevant. I also don't care that 10 out of very 100 "conservatives" are anti-gun, because they also are largely irrelevant. It's like saying some dogs can walk on two legs.The minorities in both parties have no power to influence the politics of the 2nd Amendment as long as they continue to support their respective parties in spite of their behavior on gun control.

I agree with you about the limited political power of groups in minority positions. That has nothing to do with my post, though, since my sole point was to debunk the myth that all liberals are anti 2A. Nothing more.

[RiverCity.45]

Alright, well let me ask some questions. Do these pro-2A progressives believe that I should be able to own an AR-15 and as many 30 round magazines as I want to without registering it, etc?
And do they believe that I should be able to sell it to whom I see fit to sell it to without jumping through paperwork hoops and paying money to the Federal government and to an FFL to complete said transaction? And do they further believe that I shouldn't be vilified and called every filthy name in the book because some person with mental issues, or some criminal, commits a crime with a similar weapon? I ask these questions because I do indeed have trouble believing that the answers would be affirmative without qualifying all of said answers with some sort of rhetoric. My personal opinion, of course.

Sure. At least, a lot of them that hang out at a particular liberal gun forum. I had to laugh recently when one person complained that he could no longer tell the difference between the posts at the liberal and the conservative forums, at least in terms of gun control. That particular forum allows for a wide range of opinions. Some are OK with registration, AWB, high-cap mag bans. Others oppose it vociferously. There are also democratic lawmakers who have decent ratings by NRA, and it's not hard to find one that supports 2A if you look hard, particularly in the southern and mid-western states.
I know that's outside the stereotype, and when we spend all of our time within an echo chamber, it becomes hard to believe there are other voices because we become so used to hearing only one.
See for yourself:
http://occupy2a.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... 40&t=17506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... 40&t=17214" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a small sample. One recent reply from a liberal was how glad he was that the House was controlled by Republicans right now, since that would mean likely failure of any attempts to impose significant gun restrictions.

Help me out here. How does a vociferous pro 2A liberal justify their complaints, say in NY State, when they put in power the very people that stripped their 2A rights away? How do they justify, in the current climate, the federal representatives they put in place coming after their 2A rights with a vengeance? Not trying to argue or stir the pot, I seriously would like to know what they have to say on those specific questions. Are they saying they regret voting for liberals, and will not do so in the future?

Logical fallacy. It assumes that vociferous 2A liberals voted for such people. You'd have to ask such a person. I don't know any vociferously pro2A liberal New Yorkers who voted for those people. I live in San Antonio. Hop over to that liberal gun forum and ask!

[G26ster]

New York was used only as an example. My point is that I know vociferous pro 2A liberals right here in Texas that voted for known anti 2A liberals, and are now surprised and upset that they are coming after their guns because they were sure they would not. During the last campaign, they said over and over that the POTUS had done nothing to infringe on their 2A rights, regardless of his statements to the contrary during his political career. They pointed that out over and over. But, when the right time came, and the public was shocked, and the winds were blowing his way, he came after them. If you don't know anyone like this in your area, fine, but I don't think that's the norm. Just MHO.

[RiverCity.45]

New York was used only as an example. My point is that I know vociferous pro 2A liberals right here in Texas that voted for known anti 2A liberals, and are now surprised and upset that they are coming after their guns because they were sure they would not. During the last campaign, they said over and over that the POTUS had done nothing to infringe on their 2A rights, regardless of his statements to the contrary during his political career. They pointed that out over and over. But, when the right time came, and the public was shocked, and the winds were blowing his way, he came after them. If you don't know anyone like this in your area, fine, but I don't think that's the norm. Just MHO.

Yes, you are correct. Up until Sandy Hook, POTUS had not taken any action against guns. Clearly, that has changed.

[VMI77]

New York was used only as an example. My point is that I know vociferous pro 2A liberals right here in Texas that voted for known anti 2A liberals, and are now surprised and upset that they are coming after their guns because they were sure they would not. During the last campaign, they said over and over that the POTUS had done nothing to infringe on their 2A rights, regardless of his statements to the contrary during his political career. They pointed that out over and over. But, when the right time came, and the public was shocked, and the winds were blowing his way, he came after them. If you don't know anyone like this in your area, fine, but I don't think that's the norm. Just MHO.

Many of them also took it further and claimed that based on the fact he hadn't come after guns in the past four years, he wouldn't do so in the next four years --a rather naive extrapolation.

[VMI77]

leaning nither left or right and being from cali. i can assure you there are plenty of libs that are pro 2a.

It's very comforting to lump all "liberals" into the anti-gun group, but that is just a convenient shorthand fantasy that has no basis in fact. There are anti-gun liberals and there are pro-2A liberals. There is an entire forum devoted to those 2A supporting progressives. I know, I know. Some people's heads will explode just trying to grasp that reality. LOL!

Seriously, though. Just as all conservatives are not the same (e.g., recent Support by some Republicans for gun control), there are some liberals who staunchly support the 2nd A.

There are always exceptions. The point is that the vast majority of liberals are anti gun and anti self-defense, and a minority of "conservatives" are anti-gun and anti self-defense. It matters very little to me if 10 out of every 100 liberals are pro-gun, because they are beholden to a party that is anti-gun, and their pro gun beliefs are largely irrelevant. I also don't care that 10 out of very 100 "conservatives" are anti-gun, because they also are largely irrelevant. It's like saying some dogs can walk on two legs.The minorities in both parties have no power to influence the politics of the 2nd Amendment as long as they continue to support their respective parties in spite of their behavior on gun control.

I agree with you about the limited political power of groups in minority positions. That has nothing to do with my post, though, since my sole point was to debunk the myth that all liberals are anti 2A. Nothing more.

In this thread what constitutes a liberal, and a pro-gun liberal, is merely a product of each person's individual conceptions and imagination --so we're probably not talking about the same people. What defines a modern liberal? To me, the fundamental defining feature of a modern liberal is that he is a collectivist (as opposed to classical liberals, who were not). What defines a liberal as "pro-gun?" or pro RKBA? It's not defined by ownership, as someone can be pro RKBA and not own guns, and someone else can own guns and not be pro RKBA. Biden has a shotgun, but he's not pro RKBA. My definition of pro RKBA is supporting the right of individuals to possess (keep), carry, and use outside the home (bear) weapons suitable for military duty. Do the pro 2A liberals you're talking about fit that definition?

Now, let's assume we agree on what being a pro 2A liberal means.....why does it matter? I think most people on this forum are speaking in generalities when they refer to liberals as a group. And in general, liberals are anti-2A. I tend to think everyone posting here understands that when applying labels to any group, there are exceptions to the general rule, so there are also anti-2A conservatives. In either group the members either vote or don't vote. The ones that vote are going to vote primarily for politicians they believe best represent their ideology. Since voting pro-2A liberals are in a minority they must either vote for a liberal or someone else. If they vote for liberal politicians, then they are empowering the very class of people who seek to infringe upon their 2A rights. To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, it seems to me that a pro-2A liberal, especially one who votes for liberals, is like a dog walking on it's hind legs: it's not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.

[anygunanywhere]

I tend to think everyone posting here understands that when applying labels to any group, there are exceptions to the general rule, so there are also anti-2A conservatives.

My Dad was an anti-2A conservative.

He was a staunch republican. He voted. He followed politics daily. He listened to Rush. He was Canadian by birth, Texan by the grace of God. He obtained his US citizenship by an act of Congress.

He loathed the NRA.

He had no use for the 2A because, by golly he had his shotguns and deer rifles. He scoffed at my hunting pistols and my life membership. He rolled in his grave the day I assembled my first AR.

He supported small government, low taxes, and all other freedoms.

I never understood......

Anygunanywhere

[VMI77]

I tend to think everyone posting here understands that when applying labels to any group, there are exceptions to the general rule, so there are also anti-2A conservatives.

My Dad was an anti-2A conservative.

He was a staunch republican. He voted. He followed politics daily. He listened to Rush. He was Canadian by birth, Texan by the grace of God. He obtained his US citizenship by an act of Congress.

He loathed the NRA.

He had no use for the 2A because, by golly he had his shotguns and deer rifles. He scoffed at my hunting pistols and my life membership. He rolled in his grave the day I assembled my first AR.

He supported small government, low taxes, and all other freedoms.

I never understood......

Anygunanywhere

I've been lucky when it comes to anti-gun family members. If I have any I don't know about it. My father bought me an AR15 when I was 16. My mother had her own guns. I've got a pro-gun spouse. My in-laws are pro-gun. My sons are pro-gun. My brother is pro-gun and has a CHL. I'm lucky at work too: my company has given employees a free CHL class, most of the people I work with are pro-gun (I don't actually know anyone at work who is anti-gun), and many of them have CHLs. All my neighbors have guns and I hear them shooting regularly. So I guess I'm in sort of a pro-gun "bubble": I haven't had an in-person discussion with an anti in over 12 years.

[anygunanywhere]

I haven't had an in-person discussion with an anti in over 12 years.

I know this might seem strange to some here on this board but I can't think of anyone I regularly hang with who is an anti now either. Maybe they just flat don't like to speak up around me. I can't imagine why. I am such a quiet introvert. I pretty much keep my opinions to myself. You practically have to torture me to get me to say anything.

Anygunanywhere

[chasfm11]

In this thread what constitutes a liberal, and a pro-gun liberal, is merely a product of each person's individual conceptions and imagination --so we're probably not talking about the same people. What defines a modern liberal? To me, the fundamental defining feature of a modern liberal is that he is a collectivist (as opposed to classical liberals, who were not). What defines a liberal as "pro-gun?" or pro RKBA? It's not defined by ownership, as someone can be pro RKBA and not own guns, and someone else can own guns and not be pro RKBA. Biden has a shotgun, but he's not pro RKBA. My definition of pro RKBA is supporting the right of individuals to possess (keep), carry, and use outside the home (bear) weapons suitable for military duty. Do the pro 2A liberals you're talking about fit that definition?

Now, let's assume we agree on what being a pro 2A liberal means.....why does it matter? I think most people on this forum are speaking in generalities when they refer to liberals as a group. And in general, liberals are anti-2A. I tend to think everyone posting here understands that when applying labels to any group, there are exceptions to the general rule, so there are also anti-2A conservatives. In either group the members either vote or don't vote. The ones that vote are going to vote primarily for politicians they believe best represent their ideology. Since voting pro-2A liberals are in a minority they must either vote for a liberal or someone else. If they vote for liberal politicians, then they are empowering the very class of people who seek to infringe upon their 2A rights. To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, it seems to me that a pro-2A liberal, especially one who votes for liberals, is like a dog walking on it's hind legs: it's not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.

Kinda reminds me of a song.....
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