Shooting at Empire State Buildings

[baldeagle]

According to this police officers forum:

ON DUTY
S&W 5946
Glock 19
Sigarms P226 DAO

OFF DUTY
Glock 26
S&W 3914
Sigarms P239
S&W 3953 TSW
S&W 640 .38

The Kahr K9 is no longer authorized although there are around 7,000 in the field

AFAIK, all those guns can be cocked. But you'd be an idiot to holster a cocked modern semi-automatic.

There's nothing wrong with a DAO or a heavy trigger pull if you practice regularly. If you don't practice regularly, there's a lot wrong with it.

When I practice with both of my Sigs (P226 9mm and P239 .357 Sig), I always start every magazine as double action. After all, if I'm in a bad situation and have to pull my weapon, the first shot is going to be double action. I'd better be used to it and able to shoot accurately, or the first shot is not only a complete waste but a danger to bystanders.

Well, I know the Glocks can't be cocked -- no hammer. Unless by cocked, you mean carrying with one in the chamber. And people carry modern semi-autos with one in the pipe all the time. That's the way I carry my XD-9, also striker-fired like the Glocks. And I swear I've seen officers carrying their SA guns with hammer cocked -- presumably with the safety on. So either we are talking about different things, or I disagree with the above highlighted statement. Are you saying you carry such that you'd have to rack the slide before shooting?

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

[The Annoyed Man]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

[baldeagle]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

Let me see if I can unscramble my horrible explanation. I meant that you shouldn't carry cocked and unlocked. Many modern semi-autos cannot be locked, so they should never be carried cocked. Is that better? Or should I give up and go away now?

[sjfcontrol]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

Let me see if I can unscramble my horrible explanation. I meant that you shouldn't carry cocked and unlocked. Many modern semi-autos cannot be locked, so they should never be carried cocked. Is that better? Or should I give up and go away now?

There are no "locks" on either my Glock, or my XD. Carrying either with one in the pipe would be "cocked and unlocked". Perhaps the "go away" option is the correct one...

[baldeagle]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

Let me see if I can unscramble my horrible explanation. I meant that you shouldn't carry cocked and unlocked. Many modern semi-autos cannot be locked, so they should never be carried cocked. Is that better? Or should I give up and go away now?

There are no "locks" on either my Glock, or my XD. Carrying either with one in the pipe would be "cocked and unlocked". Perhaps the "go away" option is the correct one...

OK, now I've gotta ask ya. How do you cock a gun that doesn't have a trigger?

[sjfcontrol]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

Let me see if I can unscramble my horrible explanation. I meant that you shouldn't carry cocked and unlocked. Many modern semi-autos cannot be locked, so they should never be carried cocked. Is that better? Or should I give up and go away now?

There are no "locks" on either my Glock, or my XD. Carrying either with one in the pipe would be "cocked and unlocked". Perhaps the "go away" option is the correct one...

OK, now I've gotta ask ya. How do you cock a gun that doesn't have a trigger?

uhh, all guns have a trigger... I presume you mean a hammer?
I would presume it was cocked if there was a round in the chamber, and the gun would fire if the trigger was pulled. Essentially, the striker is retracted (at least part way). but yes, the term is not definitive on all handguns.

[baldeagle]

uhh, all guns have a trigger... I presume you mean a hammer?
I would presume it was cocked if there was a round in the chamber, and the gun would fire if the trigger was pulled. Essentially, the striker is retracted (at least part way). but yes, the term is not definitive on all handguns.

OK, I surrender. I swear I'm not drinking, but my mind is clearly not working well.

[sjfcontrol]

uhh, all guns have a trigger... I presume you mean a hammer?
I would presume it was cocked if there was a round in the chamber, and the gun would fire if the trigger was pulled. Essentially, the striker is retracted (at least part way). but yes, the term is not definitive on all handguns.

OK, I surrender. I swear I'm not drinking, but my mind is clearly not working well.

Maybe you should start. It can be clarifying. "in vino, veritas".
Here

[Heartland Patriot]

My Ruger SR-9c is a striker fired pistol similar in function to the Glock and the XD series. The striker (firing pin) is partially cocked (put under tension) by the action of cycling the slide to chamber a round. The trigger being pulled completes the rearward motion of the striker and then releases it after its spring has become fully tensioned...it fires. The cycle of the slide to eject and chamber the next round repeats the process, readying it for the next press of the trigger...however, my Ruger also has a safety that locks the slide. I find some comfort in having a striker fired pistol with a safety (after seeing the Fed shoot himself with the Glock), so that is why a bought the Ruger.

[sjfcontrol]

My Ruger SR-9c is a striker fired pistol similar in function to the Glock and the XD series. The striker (firing pin) is partially cocked (put under tension) by the action of cycling the slide to chamber a round. The trigger being pulled completes the rearward motion of the striker and then releases it after its spring has become fully tensioned...it fires. The cycle of the slide to eject and chamber the next round repeats the process, readying it for the next press of the trigger...however, my Ruger also has a safety that locks the slide. I find some comfort in having a striker fired pistol with a safety (after seeing the Fed shoot himself with the Glock), so that is why a bought the Ruger.

So, if you keep it pointed in a safe direction, and you keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, and you always treat the gun like it was loaded -- you still need a mechanical safety? The DEA guy did none of that.

[sugar land dave]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

Let me see if I can unscramble my horrible explanation. I meant that you shouldn't carry cocked and unlocked. Many modern semi-autos cannot be locked, so they should never be carried cocked. Is that better? Or should I give up and go away now?

Sigh..... some days its just better to take a timeout.

[Excaliber]

My Ruger SR-9c is a striker fired pistol similar in function to the Glock and the XD series. The striker (firing pin) is partially cocked (put under tension) by the action of cycling the slide to chamber a round. The trigger being pulled completes the rearward motion of the striker and then releases it after its spring has become fully tensioned...it fires. The cycle of the slide to eject and chamber the next round repeats the process, readying it for the next press of the trigger...however, my Ruger also has a safety that locks the slide. I find some comfort in having a striker fired pistol with a safety (after seeing the Fed shoot himself with the Glock), so that is why a bought the Ruger.

So, if you keep it pointed in a safe direction, and you keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, and you always treat the gun like it was loaded -- you still need a mechanical safety? The DEA guy did none of that.

Agreed.

That incident was a perfect illustration of the fact that it's impossible to make anything foolproof.

There are two reasons this is true:

1. Fools are so ingenious

2.You can't fix stupid.

[Excaliber]

No. I was saying that if you have a DA/SA pistol and you carry it cocked, you're crazy. A 1911 (or any pistol) that has a safety should be carried cocked, right? Forgot about the Glocks.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used to own a USP Compact .40 which could be carried cocked and locked, or decocked DA. I carried it both ways.

Let me see if I can unscramble my horrible explanation. I meant that you shouldn't carry cocked and unlocked. Many modern semi-autos cannot be locked, so they should never be carried cocked. Is that better? Or should I give up and go away now?

Many modern striker fired semiautos leave the striker either partially (Glock) or fully (XD) cocked when the slide is cycled. In these guns the striker takes the place of both an external hammer and firing pin in guns like the 1911.

The slide must be cycled in order to put a round in the chamber.

Therefore, if one agrees that these pistols should be carried with a round in the chamber so they can be fired without having to first cycle the slide, one must find peace with the fact that they will be either partially or fully cocked when the loading operation is completed.

Several hundreds of thousands of these guns are carried this way every day - including every Glock in the holsters of the tens of thousands of LEO's who carry this style of gun. This method of carry is not hazardous - unless the carrier is either so ignorant or careless that he shouldn't be touching serious machinery.

Another way of looking at this is; if the safety between left ear and right is missing, no mechanical device can make that carrier safe.

[Heartland Patriot]

I didn't down anyone's choice of what pistol or brand they carry. I simply stated that I, me personally, felt better having a safety on my pistol after seeing that video. If others DON'T want that, then they are free to purchase and carry whatever works for them. We all win when there is a variety of good quality designs with different features.

[Excaliber]

I didn't down anyone's choice of what pistol or brand they carry. I simply stated that I, me personally, felt better having a safety on my pistol after seeing that video. If others DON'T want that, then they are free to purchase and carry whatever works for them. We all win when there is a variety of good quality designs with different features.

I agree with you that either option is fine for folks who are willing to learn how their pistol operates and practice enough to be able to operate it competently under stress.

At the empire state building shooting, the issues were tactics, marksmanship, and fire discipline.

With the DEA agent's video, the issues were irresponsibility and negligence.

All of those issues emanated from the area between the left ear and the right. Nothing on the guns involved would have fixed them.